WEBVTT 1 00:00:58.230 --> 00:01:07.160 Michelle @ ProWritingAid: Welcome everyone as you start to filter in. If you can see and hear me, please drop your name and location in the chat 2 00:01:07.420 --> 00:01:20.110 Michelle @ ProWritingAid: I have just dropped some special links there for you. I see. Hello! From Texas, Maryland, Oklahoma, Columbia, India, UK. Florida, Utah. 3 00:01:20.580 --> 00:01:23.300 Michelle @ ProWritingAid: South Dakota, Idaho. 4 00:01:23.790 --> 00:01:36.040 Michelle @ ProWritingAid: Washington. We have folks from all over. It looks like you can see and hear me. Just fine. So welcome again to Science Fiction writers week. It's our final day. 5 00:01:36.130 --> 00:01:56.600 Michelle @ ProWritingAid: It's been a great week, and I am so excited to be back with you all. I'm Michelle from pro writing aid. Welcome. We will get started in just a moment. I do have a few quick housekeeping items to go over with you, and I have dropped some special links in the chat for you there, so please take a look at those when you have a chance. 6 00:01:56.690 --> 00:02:07.939 Michelle @ ProWritingAid: First off your replays for the week are on our hub page, and they have been getting uploaded along with the we have the 7 00:02:09.120 --> 00:02:33.729 Michelle @ ProWritingAid: audio transcripts on there, as well as well as any special offers from our speakers, and you will find all of that on the hub. The replays will be available until September 20 eighth, and after that they will be on the pro rating Academy page. Only, so make sure you watch your replays for folks in pro rating Academy. You will have continued access to those after September 20 eighth 8 00:02:34.870 --> 00:02:55.459 Michelle @ ProWritingAid: our offer this week. If anyone is interested in upgrading to pro writing a premium, we are offering 40% off our yearly plans to all of our Science Fiction writers, week attendees, and the link and information for that is also on the Hub. But this discount is available also until September 20 eighth. 9 00:02:55.460 --> 00:03:06.489 Michelle @ ProWritingAid: It is a great time to upgrade. It's a great deal, and if you upgrade, it also helps us to keep putting events like this on for free for all of you which we love doing for our writing community. 10 00:03:08.100 --> 00:03:36.070 Michelle @ ProWritingAid: And if you would like to keep talking about Science Fiction writing with us, which we would love to do. Please join us in our private writing community online. It is free to join. You. Just have to have a free pro writing aid account. You log in with your pro-writing aid account details using the link provided, and it will let you in, and you can find us in the live event chat feed. There's a lot of threads in there currently, that you can comment on and keep the conversation going. So we'd love to have you over there 11 00:03:36.890 --> 00:04:06.079 Michelle @ ProWritingAid: reminders for this session. We are joined by 3 authors today who are going to be offering you scores of knowledge on Science Fiction writing. If you have questions for them. Please put them in the QA. Box, so that they do not get lost. As you can see, the chat moves very quickly. You are welcome to chat as much as you would like with your fellow attendees today. Please make sure that you're using the drop down, menu, and set to everyone so that everyone can see your messages, otherwise they will just come to us. 12 00:04:06.080 --> 00:04:17.560 Michelle @ ProWritingAid: So with that being said, I believe we are ready to begin. Thank you again for joining us today. I'm going to drop those special links. One more time in the chat before I introduce our speakers. 13 00:04:18.399 --> 00:04:45.519 Michelle @ ProWritingAid: We are joined today by 3 authors. First is Julie E. Trinidad, Dan Hanks, and Chris Paniteer. So award winning Science fiction and fantasy, author and editor, Julie E. Trinida was inducted into the CSFA. Hall of Fame, in 2022, published by Da. Books in New York. Her latest release is Standalone Science fiction novel to each this world. 14 00:04:45.690 --> 00:04:59.269 Michelle @ ProWritingAid: Dan Hanks is the author of Swashbucklers and Captain Moxley and the Embers of the Empire. He lives in the rolling green hills of the Peak district, and the yeah UK. With his 2 kids in fluffy sidekicks, Indie and Maverick, and sometimes Poppy. 15 00:04:59.280 --> 00:05:06.910 Michelle @ ProWritingAid: When he is not writing books. He works with a local archaeological consultancy, and is occasionally a freelance developmental editor. 16 00:05:07.020 --> 00:05:32.590 Michelle @ ProWritingAid: Chris Paneteer is an artist and writer living in Dallas, Texas with his wife, daughter, and a fluctuating herd of dog. Like creatures. One is almost certainly a goat. He writes short stories and novels, the phlebotomist and stringers, both out from angry robot books are available everywhere. Chris has also been a trial attorney in environmental cases. For 2 decades he represents people who have been injured, poisoned, or killed due to the conduct of others. 17 00:05:33.350 --> 00:05:37.299 Michelle @ ProWritingAid: All right. Welcome, everyone. Thanks for joining us today. 18 00:05:37.500 --> 00:05:49.850 Julie E. Czerneda: Oh, Hi, no! This is terrific. And wow! What a nice big crowd. You've got awesome. Yeah, thanks for having us. Oh, you're so welcome. I'm just going to watch with everyone else. So I'll hand things over to you. 19 00:05:50.350 --> 00:06:02.109 Julie E. Czerneda: Okay? Well, we did chat a little bit about this. We're gonna keep it super informal. And as as Michelle noted, please put questions in the QA. We'll leave time for that towards the end. 20 00:06:02.340 --> 00:06:27.880 Julie E. Czerneda: One of the things about this that I thought was the most fun was that where we're from. And and so we we have someone from the Uk. We actually covered 3 time zones. If I'm not mistaken, Dan, your GMT. Plus one, I'm GMT. Minus 4. And then, last, but not least, we'll roll around to Chris at GMT. Minus 5. So for those of us zoom, and trying to figure out all these different things 21 00:06:27.880 --> 00:06:41.450 Julie E. Czerneda: that was really quite cool, that we could gather together like this. So what's most unique thing about Science fiction, fantasy, horror, the genre, all of them where you're from, and from a Canadian point of view. 22 00:06:41.590 --> 00:06:43.560 Julie E. Czerneda: have to say we like it messy 23 00:06:43.610 --> 00:06:54.509 Julie E. Czerneda: not messing up so much in terms of gore. But we'd like our ending complicated and not necessarily black and white. So as a blanket statement, I'll throw that out. There, you guys. 24 00:06:55.610 --> 00:06:58.010 Dan Hanks: II mean, I think 25 00:06:58.220 --> 00:07:04.890 Dan Hanks: I think probably in the Uk. We're pretty similar. I was going to come in with an you have really mean endings. How 26 00:07:05.910 --> 00:07:25.360 Dan Hanks: well, I mean that that is the thing we we do. We're kind of depressing at times. But I think I mean, II was thinking about this question. It's really good questions to start with, and I was thinking, one of the biggest things for me is the the mythology of of the Uk and Ireland that we have to draw on, and I think it is certainly found this way into my stories. 27 00:07:25.430 --> 00:07:28.369 Dan Hanks: Pretty easily, because, you know, I've grown up here. 28 00:07:28.840 --> 00:07:37.209 Dan Hanks: I live in the countryside. II have a really big sense of this in my bones. So II feel like there's probably quite a few authors in the UK. Who 29 00:07:37.220 --> 00:07:40.379 Dan Hanks: who have a sense of this this landscape 30 00:07:40.450 --> 00:07:44.030 Dan Hanks: and it it finds its way into our genre fiction pretty easily. 31 00:07:46.220 --> 00:07:56.870 Chris "Fishbait" Panatier: I would say so I apologize for any background noise. I'm not at my home in Dallas, Texas. I'm in I'm in Bangor, Maine, right now, so I apologize for any. 32 00:07:56.960 --> 00:08:07.889 Chris "Fishbait" Panatier: Yeah. Yep, same as you. I could just go up, and I could probably throw a rock and hit your house. But for for for me from from Texas. But it's the sheer size 33 00:08:08.040 --> 00:08:15.619 Chris "Fishbait" Panatier: of II think everything. When I read writers who have come out of Texas it's extremely expansive. 34 00:08:15.650 --> 00:08:33.479 Chris "Fishbait" Panatier: and it's really the breadth of the breadth of the stories. As far as messy endings, I mean, I live in a pretty messy state. So I think it carries over. I think it carries over my my last book that came out last year. Stringers is extremely messy. Dan's read it. And 35 00:08:33.890 --> 00:08:36.420 Chris "Fishbait" Panatier: yeah, it's messy all over, but I'll stop with that 36 00:08:37.059 --> 00:08:39.640 Julie E. Czerneda: I look forward to it. I 37 00:08:39.690 --> 00:08:41.669 Julie E. Czerneda: in a good way. Excellent 38 00:08:41.679 --> 00:09:07.020 Julie E. Czerneda: it it's interesting, because, you know, one of the things that I picked up from Dan right off the bat is, we often struggle with candidates to to believe we actually have history. I mean, we, of course we do and and we're being very careful to to. You know whose history is who's right now, which is also extremely important and valid. So we do borrow from anywhere. But that's partly who we are. We're basically just stalls of all kinds of different things. So 39 00:09:07.020 --> 00:09:14.729 Julie E. Czerneda: I do know that I tend to write in Uk. English, because that's what we do in Canada. And then from my publisher in New York I trans translate. 40 00:09:15.100 --> 00:09:17.660 Julie E. Czerneda: And I imagine you have to do that, too. Dan. 41 00:09:18.020 --> 00:09:27.560 Dan Hanks: Yeah, it's it's tricky. Sometimes I think, for for one of my books. II it was suggested that I turn it all into us English. 42 00:09:27.860 --> 00:09:51.189 Dan Hanks: which I, because it's a Uk protagonist I struggled with. So I think we ended up turning it back. But that's certainly something I come across as a as an editor. And I'm just, you know. I'm very aware of of keeping it in the location to which the which it set. And I've done editing in Australia and and the Uk. And Australia in the Uk pretty similar to same as Canada. So 43 00:09:51.410 --> 00:09:58.650 Dan Hanks: but I sometimes II struggle with the Us. Stuff. Sometimes I want to put you in there. 44 00:09:58.750 --> 00:10:00.250 Dan Hanks: I just I just 45 00:10:00.320 --> 00:10:17.789 Julie E. Czerneda: well, then, we'll see. So I have a bit of a different thing. Dan and I share the same publisher. Angry robot books out of the Uk. But I'm writing. My books are mostly centered in the Us. So sometimes my editor wants to add that you in, and I have to say, No, no, no, don't do it. 46 00:10:18.420 --> 00:10:47.529 Julie E. Czerneda: It's interesting, because I actually came from a a background of editing and writing textbooks. And so I would at some point see the the Uk version from a Canadian book, or we would take something from, say, a Texas source, and then I would have to Canadianize that, and then I'd have to try and and uk it, and it's not just as simple as the you. Of course we have different words for things which we don't really notice until we go somewhere, and we think we're at home. And we're not so, Laurie. Not a truck. It's a boot, not a 47 00:10:47.570 --> 00:11:02.540 Julie E. Czerneda: now. I can't even remember what we call the inside of the rear of a car. So those things matter. But they give you the flavor. You're right. They give you that taste of everything. So do you write first in your own way? You want to write, I presume? 48 00:11:02.620 --> 00:11:04.290 Dan Hanks: Yeah, absolutely. 49 00:11:04.460 --> 00:11:05.550 Chris "Fishbait" Panatier: Yeah, totally. 50 00:11:06.150 --> 00:11:21.540 Julie E. Czerneda: It has to be. That last stage, doesn't it? I mean, I try to send my first draft with the Canadianism standard, you know. Spell checked, but I don't do it too thoroughly cause. I know I'll have that final pass, and it just makes me feel better. But and for those who are posting things that they're quite upset about this. 51 00:11:21.970 --> 00:11:31.259 Julie E. Czerneda: You've got to remember that the editor is reading in in a U. United States editor, for example, in New York, is reading thousands of manuscripts in a year. 52 00:11:31.560 --> 00:11:50.260 Julie E. Czerneda: and you don't want yours to pop out because it looks like they're spelling mistakes every third word to their mind. I mean, really, we don't have trouble reading color without you. They have a lot of trouble reading color with you, and it's not because they don't like the way we spell it. It's just it doesn't resonate properly with them. So there's there's a rationale for it. It's not just being mean. 53 00:11:50.690 --> 00:11:52.790 Julie E. Czerneda: Sometimes sometimes 54 00:11:53.980 --> 00:12:00.919 Julie E. Czerneda: the Basi equals coach. I like that one? So that's so. One of the things we were going to talk about was. 55 00:12:01.480 --> 00:12:16.919 Julie E. Czerneda: I wanted to actually jump into fandom, if I may I follow? David Lansford's ansible the the newsletter. It comes from the Uk. And so often I see all these lists of your conventions sold out within days of them opening up. Is it really that fervent over there? 56 00:12:17.070 --> 00:12:32.870 Dan Hanks: Oh, God! Ii need to admit that I am not huge with conventions over here, and I really need to be. But with 2 kids and 2 3 dogs, it's really tricky for me. I'm hoping next year I'm gonna hit everything. 57 00:12:32.890 --> 00:12:43.190 Dan Hanks: I don't. I don't know if we have that many conventions to be honest compared to the the States, which seems to have so many all the time all the way through the year. 58 00:12:43.200 --> 00:13:02.489 Dan Hanks: So it could be that they're sold out, because, you know, there are not as many, and there are so many fans of different different groups. who want to attend them. And you know we're we're a fairly small country, so you can get from one end to the other without too much issue. 59 00:13:02.510 --> 00:13:06.469 Dan Hanks: so I think you know, the people who go go to. Probably all of them. 60 00:13:07.310 --> 00:13:11.869 Julie E. Czerneda: Yeah, ours tend to be about a 5 h plane. Ride apart. What about you, Chris? 61 00:13:11.890 --> 00:13:35.670 Chris "Fishbait" Panatier: Well, I'll say that II love conventions. I found that you know, my first book came out in 2020. Dan's did, too. Right? Yeah. And and in that short period of time between then and now, I found the cons are by far the best way to engage with with readers and with fans, and as my readership grows going from my second book to my third book. Next year 62 00:13:35.780 --> 00:13:38.280 Chris "Fishbait" Panatier: I'm doing more and more like I've got 63 00:13:38.370 --> 00:13:46.620 Chris "Fishbait" Panatier: between now and now next year I've got, I think, 8 8 cons, I'm going to 64 00:13:46.750 --> 00:14:15.970 Chris "Fishbait" Panatier: yeah, when I up when I update them, which I need to do. But the website is the website is generally very, very well updated. It's just Chris Panett here, com and it's got all my stuff on there, and I'm easy to find. But yeah, I think that the cons are fantastic. You go, you do panels, and people are then more curious if they like something you said, or they are intrigued by something you said, they go find your book, they come, talk to you, and that is just that word of mouth, of course, is the strongest way for people to. 65 00:14:16.160 --> 00:14:17.210 Chris "Fishbait" Panatier: you know. 66 00:14:17.250 --> 00:14:25.590 Chris "Fishbait" Panatier: get to know books and get to know from other people what P. What really affected people, so that in person thing there's no substitute. 67 00:14:25.990 --> 00:14:34.879 Julie E. Czerneda: There's not. I will say that for the people watching us who are writers so wait waiting to be published, and they wonder what the value of a convention is. 68 00:14:35.080 --> 00:14:58.489 Julie E. Czerneda: There's a certain type of convention, the ones that are fan run, the ones that are slightly smaller, that you will have a chance to meet other writers face to face and have those conversations with them and get help, and that is the only reason I'm published at all was that my editor and nonfiction, said, Oh, you should go to this convention if you want to be a writer, in fact, right, you know. Send out your work. So I went, and I thought I found my people. 69 00:14:58.490 --> 00:15:07.649 and it was amazing, and you know it led me to all the contacts I have in publishing. It also led me to friendships I've had now for for 30 years. 70 00:15:07.650 --> 00:15:09.830 Julie E. Czerneda: so it's a 71 00:15:09.960 --> 00:15:13.690 I wouldn't say America is the main place for conventions 72 00:15:13.910 --> 00:15:23.250 Julie E. Czerneda: given our size. Canada has a good number. They try very hard not to compete with one another because they don't have that many and certainly 73 00:15:23.300 --> 00:15:32.929 Julie E. Czerneda: the list I saw in in the Uk. Was was huge and certainly lots down under. I've been to the one the nacons in Australia, New Zealand, and amazing stuff. 74 00:15:33.000 --> 00:15:38.340 Dan Hanks: so you can find them, you can find them. It's probably just me being socially inept, Julie 75 00:15:39.790 --> 00:16:07.030 Julie E. Czerneda: having kids. I mean, I was lucky because Toronto truck was the big convention when when my guys were little, I had to. And so we just actually got a deal with table. So Rogers, Art and the kids run to the table running around having a wonderful time. Actually, conventions. The small ones are really great for kids. I mean, it's it's such a strong family feeling there that I would never suggest anyone hesitate to take kids, but they are an extra thing you have to think about. 76 00:16:07.030 --> 00:16:13.000 Chris "Fishbait" Panatier: You know. Somebody on here mentioned that they were nervous to go alone to a conference. 77 00:16:13.000 --> 00:16:19.539 Chris "Fishbait" Panatier: If there's any type of conference, I totally understand that. But if there's any type of conference that exists out there. 78 00:16:19.560 --> 00:16:32.039 Chris "Fishbait" Panatier: That, I think, is a pretty safe space for someone going alone. It's probably a writer's convention. On the whole, there's always exceptions on the whole, people are very 79 00:16:32.090 --> 00:16:57.379 Chris "Fishbait" Panatier: open and welcoming. Especially, I will say, the horror conventions. I've started going absolutely and and E, as a writer, I've been very nervous just starting out in my career to to go to conventions where I don't know anybody, and I've been just brought into the fold. One person asked about how you get into conventions. Well, certainly, as a as a 80 00:16:57.410 --> 00:16:59.230 Chris "Fishbait" Panatier: Bert Newish writer. 81 00:16:59.620 --> 00:17:04.180 Chris "Fishbait" Panatier: I I'm not. I'm not necessarily being invited. I have been invited back. 82 00:17:04.280 --> 00:17:14.569 Chris "Fishbait" Panatier: but I have to reach out. I have to reach out to them and then start that process. So so you are always hustling as a writer at every stage 83 00:17:14.970 --> 00:17:33.559 Julie E. Czerneda: I would. I would also drop in that you can just go to like, look up the convention, find out, you know, buy a membership. Show up, see if they have writers workshops as part of it, and just start talking to people until you do have a book under your belt or 2. You're not going to be an invited guest 84 00:17:33.610 --> 00:17:50.100 Julie E. Czerneda: unless you're a particular expert. For example, you know, Dan would certainly be invited to talk about archaeology, mythology, and their incorporation into the work. That'd be an awesome panel. And Chris, obviously on any of many fronts, they would be have places for you to go, but just you could still just go 85 00:17:50.380 --> 00:18:02.510 Chris "Fishbait" Panatier: and have a good time. Well, and and on that note. So you know, I knew I had sold my first or novel last November to my publisher on Spec. And 86 00:18:03.010 --> 00:18:20.689 Chris "Fishbait" Panatier: I had 4 months to write it. I knew it would be coming out in a little more than a year, so I started going to Horacon's, but I did not apply to be on panels or anything. I just was going as a fan, and I was going to meet people and just start to learn about that community and not try to just hustle right away. No, I am going to hustle next year. 87 00:18:20.690 --> 00:18:34.040 Chris "Fishbait" Panatier: Okay, but but I just wanted to be sort of get a feel for it. And it worked. It worked great. I really, I met a lot of people. I had people volunteer to blurb my book when it when the advanced reader copies came out. 88 00:18:34.040 --> 00:18:44.990 Chris "Fishbait" Panatier: So it's it's been great from that perspective. Don't just start hammering people over the head, you know. Do that later. Once you know them, they're more 89 00:18:45.000 --> 00:19:05.610 Julie E. Czerneda: dan knows I hammer Dan all the time for favors. The writers out there who would know? Terrified. There is a spectrum of participation from I don't want to. I don't have to to. I just feed off this, and I love to do it, and both are fine. 90 00:19:06.010 --> 00:19:12.369 Julie E. Czerneda: both absolutely fine. Part of it is, I hate to say it. I feel one success. 91 00:19:12.590 --> 00:19:18.929 Julie E. Czerneda: If you are with people who've read your work, and it feels really great, and it inspires you to go forward. That's fantastic. 92 00:19:19.150 --> 00:19:35.810 Julie E. Czerneda: But you'll also be going to conventions where no one knows who you are, even if you're the lift, a guest of honor. I can speak to this, and you spend the entire convention saying, the reason they invited me is because and hopefully, by the end, they're interested. So it's not a job you do. It's it's 93 00:19:35.900 --> 00:19:44.359 Julie E. Czerneda: a place you find your footing in. Does that make better? Does that make sense? That's a great, great way to put it? Is you really just sort of find 94 00:19:44.450 --> 00:20:02.710 Chris "Fishbait" Panatier: you find you know your people, and you understand your place in it. And it it's good just because it's such a solitary thing. What we do is writers. You're alone in front of the screen. And then you go. And all of a sudden you're surrounded by people who are doing the same thing. So it's a it's a it's very good to find your foot. 95 00:20:02.970 --> 00:20:22.339 Dan Hanks: Well, I'm I'm happy to confirm that 2 books in, you know, with more on the horizon touch with next year. I haven't found my footing and I have been invited to a a couple of conventions. I couldn't make one assumed II talked to them about coming back the next year. Assume someone will get in touch. They didn't. 96 00:20:22.370 --> 00:20:29.199 Dan Hanks: That's on me. I should have being out there hustling like you, said Chris. But there are usually one of conventions coming up 97 00:20:29.610 --> 00:20:35.670 Dan Hanks: along with the registration. There are usually ways to submit your interest in 98 00:20:36.010 --> 00:20:39.169 Dan Hanks: giving a talk, or doing a panel, or or something like that. And 99 00:20:39.320 --> 00:20:46.449 Dan Hanks: you know, suggesting topics that you might want to talk about. So, you know. Be aware of that. 100 00:20:46.600 --> 00:20:56.650 Dan Hanks: as an aspiring writer, as someone who's got one or 2 or 3 books under your belt. Put yourself forward for the for these things. But I would think you know all all the while. You you 101 00:20:56.660 --> 00:21:21.749 Dan Hanks: you're writing, have a think about what kinds of things are interesting. What kinds of things that you would love to to talk about for an hour with your friends? That's perfect. Most people go to conventions part on panels. Just so. So. Those who've never been to one, though, immediately think that they have to be talking at the front. You'll find your your where you are. But the other thing I'll mention before maybe we switch to another topic. You know we could do. Toll hour is 102 00:21:22.040 --> 00:21:23.490 Julie E. Czerneda: a lot of 103 00:21:24.070 --> 00:21:49.749 Julie E. Czerneda: you are what you write, and you write what you are. I didn't know this. I thought authors are all dead, and you just read them posthumously. But when I started going to conventions and being a writer annoying people, I realize it was very active thing, and if I listen to someone, even just in the hallway, and I it didn't work for me, and I walked away. I wasn't gonna like their work. If I hear to Con heard a conversation or heard a panelist. And what they were saying to, I just kept saying, Yeah. 104 00:21:49.870 --> 00:21:59.670 Julie E. Czerneda: yeah, I want more of this. If I bought your book I was never disappointed. So even when you don't do something deliberately. you are putting yourself out in front of your readership 105 00:21:59.720 --> 00:22:29.670 Julie E. Czerneda: because it's your voice in the words. It's always going to be there, and you very difficult to hide that. It's a good thing, really, in my mind. But just a last thought. Oh! And someone said, Go to Comic-con, go to Comcon. Yes, but only if you've done something else first, because Comic-con is is like a giant shopping mall of of joyful things, and you really want something where you can walk down a hallway and meet maybe 10 people and have a chat with one and have a chat with another, not go to something with like 100,000 people go to something that has maybe 300 to start with. 106 00:22:30.500 --> 00:22:35.449 Julie E. Czerneda: That sounds good. Did. Did you guys take me seriously about the comparing of beer? 107 00:22:36.590 --> 00:22:49.700 Dan Hanks: yes, but I've been driving through Wales. I'm just happy that I'm here with Wi-fi. I'm I'm not. Chris and I are not home, so I'm in the middle of Wales in this beautiful little apartment. 108 00:22:49.700 --> 00:23:12.999 Dan Hanks: I really did want to bring a Welsh beer with me. But II couldn't find any. Sorry. I have some island spring. Well, II was actually this is my husband, Rogers Id said. Well, we have some really cool craft beer, but they have terrible labels. No offense, calibi brewing. But this is a Redneck lager. I mean, it's a very nice like the Ipa type of beer. 109 00:23:13.340 --> 00:23:28.990 Dan Hanks: I don't know. I don't know. Sometimes there's a couple, few others like writers, tears, and things. But anyway, we all have wonderful beer, except, you know. Obviously Chris is washed down a little bit, but we won't say that warm, but we won't say that. 110 00:23:29.920 --> 00:23:36.309 Julie E. Czerneda: really the chat goes wild. 111 00:23:36.390 --> 00:23:50.470 Julie E. Czerneda: We had. Actually, we had a a classmate was an Ozzie, and he was coming to our apartment for dinner. First he did was put all the beer he brought in the freezer because he was afraid we wouldn't serve cold enough, and he actually liked it like a slushy. 112 00:23:51.110 --> 00:23:59.929 Julie E. Czerneda: I thought I did not see that coming. This was this was originally so obviously, we're we're coming in from different parts of the world, and we're going to talk about 113 00:24:00.070 --> 00:24:08.909 Dan Hanks: the process from different parts of the world. And we, yeah, we were all supposed to bring some beer from different parts of the world is a fun thing, and Chris and I screwed up. Sorry. 114 00:24:09.150 --> 00:24:18.500 Julie E. Czerneda: So now we'll do that thing where forever to convention. Together we will just all sit down and have a beer 115 00:24:18.670 --> 00:24:26.500 Dan Hanks: sounds good. I just wanted to go back to something, Julie, that you said at the very beginning. So you like messy endings? 116 00:24:26.570 --> 00:24:29.400 Dan Hanks: Yes. Can you define messy? 117 00:24:30.560 --> 00:24:42.880 Julie E. Czerneda: I like compromise. I like the unending where nobody quite gets everything they want, but they work out a solution that means that everybody's got enough 118 00:24:42.970 --> 00:24:47.180 Julie E. Czerneda: it's quite, very Canadian of me. I like diplomacy. I like 119 00:24:47.240 --> 00:25:16.859 Julie E. Czerneda: and plus a lot of my stuff is biology based. So in biology there really isn't a good, a right and a wrong, or good and a bad. There is a I want to eat you. I don't wanna be eaten, and how can we live in the same space? So not. That well, still makes do exist. I think they're not as satisfying necessarily, because they imply something could at some point shift it. I like something where the ending it feels inevitable if it's done right, but it's also not a I want versus over. You want 120 00:25:16.940 --> 00:25:17.909 Julie E. Czerneda: that make sense. 121 00:25:18.490 --> 00:25:29.090 Chris "Fishbait" Panatier: I think that I think messy endings where there is compromise compromises real life right? So, on the one hand, on the one hand, you want, you want something that is satisfying as an ending 122 00:25:29.120 --> 00:25:36.150 Chris "Fishbait" Panatier: but something that hopefully rings true, and something that rings true is something that isn't tied up in a neat bow. 123 00:25:36.380 --> 00:25:41.550 Chris "Fishbait" Panatier: You know. But but you could still have an ending that hits hard even if it ends that. 124 00:25:41.890 --> 00:25:43.480 Julie E. Czerneda: Yes, absolutely. 125 00:25:44.460 --> 00:26:00.260 Dan Hanks: Yeah. I like messy books. The whole thing is just. But you know, I mean, that's that's something I wrote into my first book because it was centered around archeology, and and the idea of, you know, going to other countries and 126 00:26:00.570 --> 00:26:09.700 Dan Hanks: removing artifacts. And who's who's right? Who's wrong? Who gets this wondrous treasure trove of archaeology in this country. 127 00:26:09.830 --> 00:26:17.340 Dan Hanks: you know. Who does it belong to? It belongs to the country, but you know that traditionally it hasn't been like that in the past, has it? 128 00:26:17.350 --> 00:26:23.049 Dan Hanks: And we, you know, the the study of archaeology has seen this whole big everything turning on its head. 129 00:26:23.180 --> 00:26:26.290 Dan Hanks: and that was something it was really fun to explore in that book and 130 00:26:26.590 --> 00:26:46.429 Dan Hanks: and have these 2 2 characters who love each other going at it from different different aspects of this of this scientific approach. And they I mean they do. But in the end I didn't resolve it. So I guess that that falls under the boundary of messy, too, which is quite nice, but I did it all the way through the book 131 00:26:46.450 --> 00:26:48.889 Dan Hanks: I like, you know. II think it's nice to. 132 00:26:49.260 --> 00:26:58.699 Dan Hanks: It's nice to tackle that without necessarily resolving it for everyone. So people can go away and think, what what do I think about that? Leaning into a character's flaws. 133 00:26:58.710 --> 00:27:15.080 Chris "Fishbait" Panatier: That's the fun stuff, you know. If it's just if it's just oh, my characters so great they can do this. They could pick up the sword, and we'll page 2 of Chapter one. And with everybody's ass that's not interesting or blaster. We're talking about science fiction. So whatever it is. 134 00:27:15.570 --> 00:27:28.809 Julie E. Czerneda: I like the drink Combos that are coming up the chat. It's like this, it's very distracting. It's it's much, really the day for all this conversation. Yes. And what about Cliffhanger? Someone mentioned that in the chat? Passing. And 135 00:27:29.730 --> 00:27:33.180 Julie E. Czerneda: I will say, as someone who's written series. that 136 00:27:33.460 --> 00:27:41.859 Julie E. Czerneda: my goal is always to assume that the book that's out there is never going to have a sequel in the sense that 137 00:27:41.990 --> 00:27:43.360 Julie E. Czerneda: you don't know. 138 00:27:43.400 --> 00:27:57.539 Julie E. Czerneda: Necessarily. I mean, maybe they've all been bought. Yes, you can write it that way, but it's safer to assume that the book may just be picked up on its own, for example and read, and it has to come to some kind of of of gripping, satisfying. 139 00:27:57.760 --> 00:28:03.380 Julie E. Czerneda: traumatizing, some kind of ending that just lets reader go what happened. 140 00:28:03.470 --> 00:28:05.689 Julie E. Czerneda: and maybe with a thread that you've left. 141 00:28:05.800 --> 00:28:14.209 Julie E. Czerneda: but not an actual clip. Clip, hanger editors tend to frown on that, at least in in the ones I've dealt with. What about you guys? 142 00:28:15.700 --> 00:28:16.500 Dan Hanks: Chris? 143 00:28:17.220 --> 00:28:37.270 Chris "Fishbait" Panatier: Yeah, I mean, no, it's gotta it. It has to have an ending that is satisfying. If it's just a pure cliffhanger, and it's like the action just stops. And there are books that do that. That's an utter rip off. And and I'm both an author and a reader, and I think that you've got to have something a thread that carries through, even if you complete an arc. 144 00:28:37.400 --> 00:28:49.389 Chris "Fishbait" Panatier: Yeah, all, all, all good. See? All good series are like that. There's an arc for every book, but there's a thread that goes through, and and you need that if you just ended. End it all the arcs on a cliffhanger. 145 00:28:49.790 --> 00:29:02.129 Chris "Fishbait" Panatier: I mean. II honestly I want to throw the book in a puddle and never buy the sequel. That's just me. Personally, I don't. Wanna. I don't want to sound too old. 146 00:29:03.010 --> 00:29:08.799 Dan Hanks: Yeah. that's true. I'm just wondering now if all my books have ended up in puddles near Chris's house, because 147 00:29:08.990 --> 00:29:17.579 Dan Hanks: II tend to. I tend to maybe not tie things up as much as I should. Because I do want to tell more of the story. I do have that arc. 148 00:29:17.810 --> 00:29:27.970 Dan Hanks: but there's clear you reached into my boxes clearly, but you did this. So swashbucklers is a great example. Swashbucklers had an arc, and then the very end it did this. 149 00:29:28.430 --> 00:29:35.600 Dan Hanks: Yeah, and it propelled you. It propelled you into the next story, so I wouldn't call yours a cliffhanger at all. 150 00:29:36.170 --> 00:29:48.299 Julie E. Czerneda: The closest I've come to. It is with mirage the the book a a series I haven't gone back to yet. Everything's wrapped up. Everything's fine, you know. Everything was going to happen. And the very last page 151 00:29:48.310 --> 00:29:53.560 Julie E. Czerneda: there's basically a phone call. And the voice at the end is never one you thought he'd hear. 152 00:29:53.870 --> 00:30:15.539 Julie E. Czerneda: you know, and and it makes a very strange sound. And then that stops, and I did it on purpose, because I was, you know, 99% sure, I'd be writing the next one in another year or 2, and then my publisher got sold, and it's now pending. So it I have to reprise that and let everybody know. So that was a little lesson learned. But II still I still stand by the ending. I think it gave you that little kind of a twist 153 00:30:15.860 --> 00:30:17.050 Julie E. Czerneda: people can imagine. 154 00:30:19.160 --> 00:30:20.410 Julie E. Czerneda: Oh, yeah. 155 00:30:22.340 --> 00:30:36.280 Chris "Fishbait" Panatier: sorry. I'm just trying to work my way through. Look! Look! I know we were warned about it, but I just wanted to say something real quick, because there's been some questions about AI, and I've answered, a few of them on the on the QA. Very, very 156 00:30:36.490 --> 00:30:38.960 Chris "Fishbait" Panatier: currently. which is this. 157 00:30:38.980 --> 00:30:42.300 don't use. AI AI is 158 00:30:42.490 --> 00:30:47.959 Chris "Fishbait" Panatier: AI is theft, and and here's but let's pretend it's not. Let's pretend it's not 159 00:30:48.960 --> 00:31:02.609 Chris "Fishbait" Panatier: once you once you have an AI create a story for you which they're not to the point where they can do it. Well. you're going to have to learn how to make that story into something that is sellable that someone would buy. 160 00:31:02.970 --> 00:31:11.950 Chris "Fishbait" Panatier: Okay. And no one's gonna buy anything right now, if they know there's AI. So just forget that for a second. But even if they did, you're going to have to learn the trade. Anyway. 161 00:31:12.070 --> 00:31:23.069 Chris "Fishbait" Panatier: you're going to have to learn how to write a story. You're going to have to learn how to make it come together in a cohesive way that someone will want to read. You're going to become a writer. 162 00:31:23.190 --> 00:31:26.059 Chris "Fishbait" Panatier: So just do the work now. 163 00:31:26.240 --> 00:31:35.579 Chris "Fishbait" Panatier: hey? Some of the other journeys. 164 00:31:35.600 --> 00:31:42.829 Chris "Fishbait" Panatier: But if you want to be a writer, actually be a writer. so start there. It may be a long, hard journey. Okay. 165 00:31:43.550 --> 00:31:47.619 Chris "Fishbait" Panatier: but don't take the shortcuts because you're gonna end up having to become a writer, anyway. 166 00:31:47.630 --> 00:31:53.040 Julie E. Czerneda: if you want to be successful. 167 00:31:53.090 --> 00:32:18.699 Julie E. Czerneda: Well and well done, thank you. Speaking of getting coming together one of the things that premises on this panel was how someone from Ottawa and someone from the Peak district and someone from Dallas got together to talk about genre fiction together and we have someone we can blame. And I think, who's been with for the longest, I think, Dan. 168 00:32:18.980 --> 00:32:19.900 Julie E. Czerneda: maybe 169 00:32:20.430 --> 00:32:21.989 Dan Hanks: 2,017, 170 00:32:22.400 --> 00:32:25.910 Julie E. Czerneda: and definitely so you can introduce who we're talking about. 171 00:32:26.040 --> 00:32:30.170 Dan Hanks: That would be our wonderful agent. Sarah Megabo. 172 00:32:30.720 --> 00:32:38.710 Dan Hanks: who is, you know. widely known a fantastic agent. I certainly can't believe. 173 00:32:38.960 --> 00:32:42.939 Dan Hanks: Ii managed to get onto a roster of clients. 174 00:32:43.010 --> 00:32:52.760 Dan Hanks: But I know you know I know we're all incredibly thrilled to be to be with her. So, Julie, talk us through. How you you got with Sarah. 175 00:32:53.320 --> 00:33:09.050 Chris "Fishbait" Panatier: Oh, I'm gonna toss it over to Chris, because my story is gonna be so different from yours. Well, okay. So I'll try to make this quick. And again, if the background noise is too much. II apologize. 176 00:33:09.200 --> 00:33:11.920 Chris "Fishbait" Panatier: I started writing in 2015, 177 00:33:11.990 --> 00:33:21.949 Chris "Fishbait" Panatier: and I started from a place of not knowing how to write, even like where the quotation marks go on dialog. Okay, I had to Google that I was like, I'm going to be a novelist. 178 00:33:21.970 --> 00:33:23.680 Chris "Fishbait" Panatier: And so I had to start from 179 00:33:23.740 --> 00:33:30.219 Chris "Fishbait" Panatier: just nothing as far as How do you do this? The trade and everything. And I wrote every day, every day, every day, every day. 180 00:33:30.340 --> 00:33:31.610 Chris "Fishbait" Panatier: and I queried 181 00:33:31.830 --> 00:33:45.819 Chris "Fishbait" Panatier: 2 books to Sarah, as well as lots of other people, and she very nicely passed on, both of them. Eventually I, my publisher, Angry Robot. They didn't do it this year, but they've done it in the years running up they would have one month 182 00:33:45.850 --> 00:33:49.540 Chris "Fishbait" Panatier: where unagented writers can submit their work. 183 00:33:49.650 --> 00:33:53.960 Chris "Fishbait" Panatier: and they'll consider it. They call their open doors period, and 184 00:33:54.030 --> 00:34:04.330 Chris "Fishbait" Panatier: something like 600 people submitted. I submitted the query and 3 chapters. They requested the full. 3 months later 185 00:34:04.430 --> 00:34:14.710 Chris "Fishbait" Panatier: I opened my junk mail in my hotmail. I sell Hotmail to Og. Guys. It's going to be worth a lot of money. I opened it, and there was an offer to buy the book. 186 00:34:14.800 --> 00:34:25.389 Chris "Fishbait" Panatier: That book had been. That book was called The Phlebotomist. It had been passed by 80 or so agents. It only takes one. Guys only takes one person 187 00:34:25.610 --> 00:34:30.349 Chris "Fishbait" Panatier: for your book to ring true. With that they really like they published the book. 188 00:34:30.389 --> 00:34:36.169 Chris "Fishbait" Panatier: Then, 6 weeks after it came out they offered me to submit a second book. 189 00:34:36.340 --> 00:34:38.929 Chris "Fishbait" Panatier: I then went to Sara Megabo. I said, Sarah. 190 00:34:39.620 --> 00:34:50.129 Chris "Fishbait" Panatier: I they they're offering me another book deal. Do you want to be my agent? She said. I'm all full, but someone else in my agency could potentially do it. She hooks me up with Hannah Ferguson. 191 00:34:50.250 --> 00:34:54.879 Chris "Fishbait" Panatier: I end up signing with Hannah Ferguson. Then, 7 months later, Hannah 192 00:34:54.949 --> 00:35:05.129 Chris "Fishbait" Panatier: quit the business. and then Sarah took me on. So I told Sarah, I said, I've been orbiting you like a thirsty little planet for like 5 years. And finally. 193 00:35:05.280 --> 00:35:10.729 Chris "Fishbait" Panatier: finally, we're locked in. So Sarah is my agent, and that's how I ended up with my agent. So my query 194 00:35:10.790 --> 00:35:19.910 Chris "Fishbait" Panatier: got me the publishing deal, actually, and then I just sort of orbited until I ended up being snatched up by her gravity 195 00:35:20.170 --> 00:35:35.300 Chris "Fishbait" Panatier: chemistry. 196 00:35:35.300 --> 00:35:55.040 Julie E. Czerneda: I've been writing my stories for myself for decades before that, just never finishing this, you know, and my husband and my publisher. Time said you should really should just try, you know, selling fiction. And I went. Ha! Ha! No! But they, you know the idea stuck, and I tried it so back then this is nice. 987. They early nineties. 197 00:35:55.040 --> 00:36:09.539 Julie E. Czerneda: A lot of publishers would still, especially in science fiction, like dog books would take books over the transfer. They just take unsolicited, which is always that way, and they still will reach from the slush pile. It just takes a lot longer to get noticed if you're there. But it's still fairly 198 00:36:09.650 --> 00:36:19.720 Julie E. Czerneda: still happens a lot in in some of the publishing world. So I had. I had my book bought, I got another one that she and I, the editor at Dog, the Co. Publisher. 199 00:36:19.770 --> 00:36:30.399 Julie E. Czerneda: got along really well, and we just kept working it, you know. And finally, I quit writing the nonfiction I just kept. You know, it was fine. The problem was that 200 00:36:30.580 --> 00:36:51.270 Julie E. Czerneda: you can't go to things like Hollywood, or television, or or some in some cases some of the foreign rights deals, unless you have an agent, and I sort of had a conversation over the years with one or 2, and some of them talk too much. Another one showed up with my manuscript full of post it notes, and how they change it for the next book. 201 00:36:51.560 --> 00:37:05.840 Julie E. Czerneda: And I just left working with 60 author teams in text book land. And I did not want someone showing me how to write book, so I circled Sarah as well because I knew her through as the agent of a friend of mine, Karina Sumner Smith, and I was incredibly impressed 202 00:37:05.900 --> 00:37:15.370 Julie E. Czerneda: with the way they interacted. So I would just pay attention. And I went to a couple of conventions and and met her, and just had had Kareem to introduce us. 203 00:37:15.380 --> 00:37:29.880 Julie E. Czerneda: And then finally I said, You know what I'm going to do this. I'm a grown person. I should be actually having an agent like normal people. So I contacted Sarah, and it turned out she had one of my books on her reading on her desk because she er bedside table because she was already reading me. 204 00:37:30.290 --> 00:37:34.570 Julie E. Czerneda: which was really nice. I never had that from any of the other people I talked to. 205 00:37:34.710 --> 00:37:45.270 Julie E. Czerneda: and we really hit it off, and she needed a proposal. So I went into my drawer and I pulled out one. I hadn't done yet through it at, or she loved it, and the next day I had an agent, and then I'm going. 206 00:37:45.710 --> 00:37:52.889 Julie E. Czerneda: What does that mean now? So I went to Sarah, and I said, I'm going to ask you all these dumb questions. So I've been asking Sarah dumb questions now for 5 years. 207 00:37:53.180 --> 00:38:00.520 Julie E. Czerneda: and she's answered everyone, because in many ways, though, I was successful. I was incredibly naive about the business side. 208 00:38:00.860 --> 00:38:08.840 Julie E. Czerneda: and especially now that that da has been bought by aster publishing, and there's a different dynamic, and things are far more 209 00:38:09.390 --> 00:38:17.620 Julie E. Czerneda: corporate driven. They're very, very still, very much the same flavor. But I'm really happy to have someone who knows all this stuff to say, don't panic now. 210 00:38:17.690 --> 00:38:19.230 Julie E. Czerneda: Panic now 211 00:38:19.530 --> 00:38:29.910 Julie E. Czerneda: and then. She's great, Sarah. Sorry about that, Katie is absolutely great. II have no regrets, but, as I said I, our paths were very different. The only thing we have in common really, is that Sarah said. 212 00:38:30.050 --> 00:38:37.809 Julie E. Czerneda: She got contacted by pro writing a, and they said, you have some authors who would like to get together, and she said, You, you and you 213 00:38:38.070 --> 00:38:40.900 Dan Hanks: and I'm glad she did. Well. 214 00:38:41.120 --> 00:38:48.570 Dan Hanks: I mean, it's it's incredible that we've all had different stories, but mine is different again with Sarah, and I've been writing 215 00:38:49.330 --> 00:38:52.629 Dan Hanks: properly for 21 years. 216 00:38:52.670 --> 00:39:06.729 Dan Hanks: and II spent, I think, the first 10 years working and reworking the same book, cause I didn't want to move on once I finished, it was like, I can't write another thing. I'm just gonna keep working on it till it gets published. You can't do that. Just move on to the next thing. 217 00:39:07.010 --> 00:39:10.589 Dan Hanks: but I think probably about the same time that Twitter came along. 218 00:39:10.670 --> 00:39:17.730 Dan Hanks: II jumped on there, and I sort of immersed myself in the right community, and Sarah was of a big shining star 219 00:39:17.920 --> 00:39:27.950 Dan Hanks: on Twitter. At that point I think she was doing 1010 queries and 1010 rejections, and you know I was learning so much from her tweets things she was engaging with. 220 00:39:28.130 --> 00:39:42.960 Dan Hanks: So Sarah was always the agent I wanted and I was nowhere close at that point, but as I was writing the background, I started doing reviews for a a website called Fantasy Faction. 221 00:39:43.080 --> 00:39:48.280 Dan Hanks: and I was doing reviews for books. And then I started doing interviews with the authors. 222 00:39:48.340 --> 00:39:56.109 Dan Hanks: and it was through that way that I got to know Sarah cause I was interviewing some of her authors, and then II think I asked one of them. 223 00:39:56.330 --> 00:40:20.629 Dan Hanks: Do you mind if I interview Sarah? You know you could introduce us? So they did, and I interviewed Sarah for the for the blog, which was great, and then Sarah started sending me her client books that were coming up for review. So I started reviewing those we developed that relationship. And then II came up with this idea, and I think we were at that stage where I just I flung it to her. I said, What do you think about this? 224 00:40:20.790 --> 00:40:29.409 Dan Hanks: Could I get way? I was gonna do a ready player, one with all these references, and I wanted to know. Do I need to get permission for them? Can I just write it? And someone else will do that? 225 00:40:30.190 --> 00:40:37.769 Dan Hanks: And and you know. She answered the question really, really nicely for me, and then said, You know, just send it my way. 226 00:40:37.870 --> 00:40:40.219 Dan Hanks: And then I did, and she rejected it. 227 00:40:40.430 --> 00:40:52.920 Dan Hanks: Because it wasn't quite right. So even though, you know, even though we have that connection, she was like this still isn't right for me. But then we we were able to talk a bit more about what I could do, and II re 228 00:40:52.960 --> 00:41:00.169 Dan Hanks: reworked it for her, sent it back, and and she said, yes, so it's, you know. It's kind of an itch there in I 229 00:41:00.350 --> 00:41:08.079 Dan Hanks: the slush pile, the query, querying trenches so difficult. But that's not the only way to do this. You 230 00:41:08.170 --> 00:41:11.370 Dan Hanks: keep writing and and try and 231 00:41:11.440 --> 00:41:22.459 Dan Hanks: be active in the community. Whatever community you know, you want to be part of the writing community in general. You have specific genre. you know. Just be active and keep writing. 232 00:41:22.490 --> 00:41:31.639 Chris "Fishbait" Panatier: and I would I would. I would add on to what Dan said, that you writing is one of those disciplines where guess what? You cannot get worse. 233 00:41:31.870 --> 00:41:53.239 Chris "Fishbait" Panatier: That's that's a fact. You write every day. No, no, no, you cannot get worse as far as the craft goes, your stories. You might have a dud here or there, but your craft will only get better, and if you keep writing, even if you're trying to query novels, get yourself out there with some short stories, right? Some flash fiction. Okay, that's a quicker turnaround. It's a quicker, you know. 234 00:41:53.270 --> 00:42:06.599 Chris "Fishbait" Panatier: bump of adrenaline when you get an acceptance and you will get it if you keep trying, and eventually eventually you will get an agent. You just can't stop. You gotta keep trying. And one of the folks on here asked. 235 00:42:06.690 --> 00:42:13.200 Chris "Fishbait" Panatier: How do you know when to take the suggested changes from an agent, and when to stick to your writing and find a different agent. 236 00:42:13.540 --> 00:42:18.430 Chris "Fishbait" Panatier: And that's a man. That's a sticky question. I think most of the time. 237 00:42:18.440 --> 00:42:28.100 Chris "Fishbait" Panatier: By the time you have an agent you have written enough where you know your writing well enough. You know your story well enough that you can defend your choices. 238 00:42:28.220 --> 00:42:34.290 Chris "Fishbait" Panatier: and sometimes an agent, an agent, no matter how good they are, is never going to know the story to the depth you do. 239 00:42:34.540 --> 00:42:54.940 Chris "Fishbait" Panatier: but sometimes they can see things on a macro level or a meta level, and it may be something you've missed. So again, your judgment will improve by the time you have an agent, but you always have to take what they say and really think about it objectively. By that point you shouldn't be too precious. I've I've deleted. 240 00:42:54.940 --> 00:43:10.489 Chris "Fishbait" Panatier: Yeah, but but what I mean is, I save everything. But I have deleted huge swaths of a book, huge chapters upon chapters, and you know what? After a few days the pain goes away, and you realize you know what I probably made the right choice. I would not. 241 00:43:10.740 --> 00:43:15.040 Chris "Fishbait" Panatier: I've had some friends who have stalemated with an agent, and they've left their agent. 242 00:43:15.300 --> 00:43:21.140 Chris "Fishbait" Panatier: and then they've gone for a long period of time on agent, or haven't gotten another agent. So that's a very big decision. 243 00:43:21.160 --> 00:43:28.469 Chris "Fishbait" Panatier: If you have a if you butt heads with your agent, man, make sure you're really butting your head your heads over something that matters. 244 00:43:29.250 --> 00:43:53.189 Julie E. Czerneda: I will jump in for the non for the new writers in the group that yes, in Science Fiction and fantasy you still don't have to have an agent to be read. It's good to get out the community. You can meet editors in person. You can meet agents in person at conventions, and I did put in that information in the chat. So there's ways to meet them besides the querying process. But I would take good care to know. There's 2 things about agents. 245 00:43:53.380 --> 00:43:54.900 Julie E. Czerneda: Sarah does not 246 00:43:54.970 --> 00:44:21.500 Julie E. Czerneda: other than Dan edit particularly she she prefers not, and that was the first thing I said, I prefer not. I have an editor that I work with. Feedback on. The novel comes from that person, not from my agent. There are other agents very much like to groom and work with their authors, and if that's the kind of agent you want, those people are out there, and you'll find it in, how they talk on their websites about what they do for you. 247 00:44:21.500 --> 00:44:48.800 Julie E. Czerneda: as opposed to the ones who are there more as a professional liaison between you and publishing, for example, and the other thing is on their list of what they will they look for. They'll tell you what they're looking for. You don't have to. Agents can represent a whole whack of things Sarah does, and some just want to represent middle grade port. I mean, they're very specific. So you just need to know that. Any. I think we've 248 00:44:49.270 --> 00:44:56.730 Julie E. Czerneda: goodness, I think we've covered a lot of different things. It's interesting that you guys are both published in the UK. Though. So who distributes angry robot over here? 249 00:44:57.030 --> 00:45:06.379 Chris "Fishbait" Panatier: It's Pengu. It's ping Penguin Random House. Yeah. So so angry robots are great publisher because they're well. They're they're not 250 00:45:06.430 --> 00:45:13.529 Chris "Fishbait" Panatier: big. 5 right or big 4, or how I'm at ever. It's soon to be big one, right? They're all just gonna come together into one giant 251 00:45:14.120 --> 00:45:25.060 Chris "Fishbait" Panatier: evil corp but hopefully, Dod doesn't but but they're great because they have full distribution everywhere. So everywhere. My books are, you know, in. 252 00:45:25.100 --> 00:45:28.769 Chris "Fishbait" Panatier: you know, Barnes and Noble all the all the main bookstores. And so are Dan's. 253 00:45:31.080 --> 00:45:35.609 Julie E. Czerneda: Okay. Dan, did you have something to say about that. I think otherwise I might go to the questions. 254 00:45:35.950 --> 00:45:43.710 Dan Hanks: Oh, no, it's okay. Sorry. I was answering the question. I tend to tune Chris out when I can, you know 255 00:45:43.860 --> 00:45:46.040 Chris "Fishbait" Panatier: that's a good idea. That's a good idea. 256 00:45:46.560 --> 00:45:53.269 No, that's not true. Are you guys in the Pw. Community regularly to pw, a community 257 00:45:53.750 --> 00:46:14.780 Chris "Fishbait" Panatier: that's this pro writing aid thing that we're doing right now, which I don't think we we are. In fact, I had. I had not heard of it. It's apparently pretty incredible with so many people. So. But I wanted to say that I'm pretty easy to find if anyone ever wants to ask me a writing question. I'm more than happy to 258 00:46:15.030 --> 00:46:18.409 Chris "Fishbait" Panatier: spend way too many words giving you an answer. 259 00:46:18.870 --> 00:46:48.719 Julie E. Czerneda: The expression is paid forward, and it's been around a long, long time, and I have yet to meet in a writer who has time to breathe, who would not be immediately interested in answering your questions. As long as you want abuse the privilege, you can meet them online, you can meet them in person. Don't hesitate to ask. I mean absolutely, you could ask my emails on my website. You can ask me a question that's absolutely fine. I've asked so many questions that if people ever called in that dead, I'd be answering questions for another 100 years. 260 00:46:48.720 --> 00:46:58.210 Julie E. Czerneda: so don't hesitate to ask anything. We have a question from an anonymous person. When do you show your story to people at first draft? I made the mistake of showing 261 00:46:58.310 --> 00:47:03.550 Julie E. Czerneda: a first chapter, so someone who pointed out errors. I have no idea how to get back on track any suggestions. 262 00:47:04.750 --> 00:47:17.810 Dan Hanks: Yeah, sorry. I was just writing back. I think it depends who you have to read it. And it depends how confident you feel and whether someone pointing out errors to you 263 00:47:17.820 --> 00:47:21.849 Dan Hanks: is going to knock your confidence and and give you a roadblock. 264 00:47:21.940 --> 00:47:36.610 Dan Hanks: because and I think the more you put it out to people and the more feedback you get, you'll get better at it. You'll develop a thicker skin. You'll know it's not personal, it never. It's never personal. It's always about the writing, and you just gotta go right. Yes, this person is spotted. This. 265 00:47:37.100 --> 00:47:38.839 Dan Hanks: I'll fix it great. 266 00:47:38.990 --> 00:47:43.019 Dan Hanks: I think when you're starting out it's quite difficult to do that. So 267 00:47:43.050 --> 00:47:50.499 Dan Hanks: I think what I probably do and what I definitely did is you write it, you finish it, you sit on it for a bit 268 00:47:50.640 --> 00:47:59.910 Dan Hanks: and do something else. Come back to it and then give it another pass, and I think if you keep doing that, you'll start to develop a a way of spotting these things yourself. 269 00:48:00.320 --> 00:48:05.700 Dan Hanks: And after that second draft I think it will probably be in really good shape to go to whoever you've got 270 00:48:05.730 --> 00:48:17.949 Dan Hanks: but I think if you said bits and pieces now, I said, rule first drafts out to to certain people knowing that they'll be able to give me some feedback, and knowing that I generally won't cry if it's also 271 00:48:18.360 --> 00:48:25.430 Julie E. Czerneda: I send out chunks of material that are for example, if II wrote about a mail. 272 00:48:25.430 --> 00:48:48.499 Julie E. Czerneda: and so I contacted a master miller, and that person agreed to read the chunks. I wrote about the mail, and actually invited me in and show me the mail, so to get that right, and that no one has ever said no, in all the years I've done this to reading something for a a fact check, or to give you more information on a topic. So that one is really that's a no brainer. Everyone should try to do that one. Just make sure you thank them. 273 00:48:48.530 --> 00:48:49.870 Julie E. Czerneda: But 274 00:48:50.360 --> 00:49:07.650 Julie E. Czerneda: II was the opposite I. My writing was so personal that when I decided to send it out the only place I ever sent it was straight to an editor. No one had ever read it. And after that I got into a writers group. I thought, oh, we just writers, groups. You could do this sort of thing, and they were valuable. But by that point I sort of had developed this. 275 00:49:07.660 --> 00:49:18.030 Julie E. Czerneda: write fast, get it done, get it out, move on mentality. That has been sort of my the way it worked for me, and everyone is different. Every approach is whatever works 276 00:49:18.600 --> 00:49:20.350 Chris "Fishbait" Panatier: I am. I 277 00:49:21.010 --> 00:49:25.510 Chris "Fishbait" Panatier: I sometimes think that my manuscripts are done, and they're not 278 00:49:25.960 --> 00:49:37.640 Chris "Fishbait" Panatier: and so I will sometimes wait a month or 2 and go back and hit it, and just be utterly shocked by not just some of the typos, I find, but some of the connections that were there that I didn't see 279 00:49:37.930 --> 00:49:40.810 Chris "Fishbait" Panatier: that I'm like, Oh, my God, I have to use this. 280 00:49:40.850 --> 00:49:47.080 Chris "Fishbait" Panatier: you know, and they become so much better. And I'm an impatient, impulsive person. 281 00:49:47.120 --> 00:49:48.190 Chris "Fishbait" Panatier: and. 282 00:49:48.220 --> 00:50:15.849 Chris "Fishbait" Panatier: like all of these tattoos, were just like I just walked in and said, Just cover my whole body. I'm extremely extremely impulsive, and I had to learn patience with this. But if you let your manuscript sit and just settle for a little bit. You come back, you you'd be shocked by what you improve upon, and I put a link in the chat. For any aspiring writer. One of the most effective, helpful things for me was I went to Janet, reads Blog. She's an agent. 283 00:50:15.980 --> 00:50:25.789 Chris "Fishbait" Panatier: It's like. anyway, it's in. It's in the chat. It's JET. Reid, literary at blog spotcom. 284 00:50:25.850 --> 00:50:32.869 Chris "Fishbait" Panatier: and she writes 3 or 4 paragraphs every day about the publishing industry. 285 00:50:33.010 --> 00:50:38.629 Chris "Fishbait" Panatier: and I just read, I would sit there with my coffee in the morning, and I would read entry after entry after entry after entry. 286 00:50:38.710 --> 00:50:41.890 Chris "Fishbait" Panatier: and it gave me a real appreciation for what it was gonna take. 287 00:50:42.030 --> 00:50:48.439 Chris "Fishbait" Panatier: and that piles of rejections is actually part of the process. A huge part of the process. 288 00:50:48.590 --> 00:50:59.550 Dan Hanks: And it really, really really gave me perspective, going forward as an aspiring writer. So I wreck highly, recommend everyone. Go there and query, shark, which you probably have all heard of already. 289 00:50:59.590 --> 00:51:04.719 Julie E. Czerneda: and I will take you back one step. Sorry, sorry, Dan. I'll take you back. One more step on that. 290 00:51:04.870 --> 00:51:10.260 Julie E. Czerneda: and it is absolutely fine to write for yourself. In fact. 291 00:51:10.590 --> 00:51:21.619 Julie E. Czerneda: the more time you spend proportionally in your writing, energy, writing, new material as opposed to researching how to write, and this is not meaning to in any way to dismiss that. 292 00:51:21.840 --> 00:51:28.769 Julie E. Czerneda: I've known people who have been workshopping and reading, how to write books and doing this for 15 years. 293 00:51:28.800 --> 00:51:51.179 Julie E. Czerneda: and have made that one chapter is worth the progress. So just be aware that it can feel like you are doing something incredibly valuable and gaining information always is, but it should never be at the at The. I don't feel like writing today, so I'm going to do this. I'm not saying Chris does that at all. I'm just saying he's peace compartmentalizing beautifully, but I know myself I can't. I have to be on something 294 00:51:51.180 --> 00:52:15.629 Julie E. Czerneda: to get it done before I Dan, before you say something, I just wanna make sure we get to a couple of other questions really super quick. I'll answer this one, and then we'll move on. What agents and publishers would you suggest? For at why, a sci-fi, I would go to your bookstore. Look at the titles of why, that would be your readership, and see who's publishing them and open up and see who edits them. Because it's that editor you wanna find. 295 00:52:15.630 --> 00:52:21.860 and that's where I would go. And and they would also may say something about the agent they have. So so look for the books. 296 00:52:22.110 --> 00:52:23.700 Julie E. Czerneda: So, Dan? 297 00:52:24.160 --> 00:52:29.129 Dan Hanks: Yeah, no. Sorry I had nothing more to add. I think you both covered it. 298 00:52:29.380 --> 00:52:46.839 Chris "Fishbait" Panatier: The next question was, should a nonfiction writer. Slash journalists be looking for an agent that does both sci-fi and nonfiction. That really depends on what your story is. Or what your what you want to write, and I highly recommend agent query that one's free. 299 00:52:46.950 --> 00:52:51.229 Chris "Fishbait" Panatier: It's not always up to date when you're looking for an agent. 300 00:52:51.720 --> 00:53:00.969 Chris "Fishbait" Panatier: publishers. Marketplace is 20 bucks a month, but it's way more accurate as far as what type of work different agents 301 00:53:01.110 --> 00:53:07.520 Chris "Fishbait" Panatier: cover and you know, II had a membership to that that me and a few other writers shared. 302 00:53:07.740 --> 00:53:16.819 Chris "Fishbait" Panatier: And so, agent query or publishers, marketplace will really help you delineate who you need to go look at. 303 00:53:17.730 --> 00:53:20.659 Dan Hanks: Yeah. And another question 304 00:53:21.010 --> 00:53:28.669 Dan Hanks: for both of you. Do you obsess over your first pages and your first line? Are you ever satisfied. And how do you know if you have it right? 305 00:53:28.910 --> 00:53:44.750 Julie E. Czerneda: There are 2 kinds. There are the ones that you know are fantastic, and if only the rest of the book would show up, and there are the ones where it doesn't matter. Cause you're gonna write it. You're gonna write it. You're gonna keep going back, and when you get to the end you'll rewrite that front because you'll know 306 00:53:44.870 --> 00:53:55.090 Julie E. Czerneda: what the book is going to do. And I know it's hard to hear, because people want to send in that first page in their query, or first 2 chapters, they want to nail it, get it right. 307 00:53:55.820 --> 00:54:00.260 Julie E. Czerneda: Don't obsess. That's why I would say it's it's likely going to change. 308 00:54:00.830 --> 00:54:10.509 Dan Hanks: Yeah, totally, unless it's perfect. But once the book is done, and then you go back. The beginning of the book when you send it out on queries 309 00:54:10.720 --> 00:54:14.940 Dan Hanks: is important. And that's when you need to obsess. When you've written the book, you know what it's about. 310 00:54:14.970 --> 00:54:32.790 Dan Hanks: Then you can start going back and really polish up those those first 50 pages. And that's when you start to obsess over things. And sometimes you might find that the first great first line that you had is not as good as you thought, and that perfect first line is maybe halfway down the page, maybe on the next page, maybe in the next chapter. 311 00:54:33.170 --> 00:54:34.500 Dan Hanks: It's just 312 00:54:35.260 --> 00:54:45.930 Julie E. Czerneda: no, no, no, I didn't mean to drop this watching the clock just quick. Little example of that I wrote, teach this world. Starting at a certain point, I wrote half the book. 313 00:54:46.700 --> 00:55:04.510 Julie E. Czerneda: and at that halfway point I realized what was bugging me was that I didn't have the kind of back story that I like to normally put in. That makes me feel like I know what's moving forward, and everybody's got their place. So I put that half of the book aside and I wrote to get there, and I thought maybe it would be a chapter 2 chapters. There is more 314 00:55:04.510 --> 00:55:20.349 Julie E. Czerneda: new material before where I originally start the book. Then then there is material that was after, and I didn't have to change it. I just had to start writing in a different place. So beginnings, you really need to work through the whole thing before you really know your right beginning? 315 00:55:20.540 --> 00:55:26.990 Chris "Fishbait" Panatier: Look, look II I've said this recently, many, many times to friends and another folks I've talked about, which is. 316 00:55:27.070 --> 00:55:34.209 Chris "Fishbait" Panatier: I don't even know what my story is, or who my characters really are, until I've written the whole book. One time 317 00:55:34.400 --> 00:55:48.810 Chris "Fishbait" Panatier: I re, and then I go. Okay. Now I know what the story is. Now I know who these people really are. I go back to the beginning, and I sculpt it, and I polish it into what I've now learned. The story is. So don't be precious about that first draft. Just get through it. 318 00:55:49.340 --> 00:56:01.330 Dan Hanks: Yeah. And I think with a question about getting overwhelmed by your internal criticism, and I think we all have to realize that first draft is is more often than not going to be absolute rubbish. 319 00:56:01.530 --> 00:56:10.259 Dan Hanks: but you have to get it on the page, and then you can start. It's someone described it as putting sand in a sandbox before you can start building the castle. 320 00:56:10.580 --> 00:56:15.429 Dan Hanks: which is, is kind of nice, but it is. It is really just getting the words on the page. 321 00:56:15.470 --> 00:56:23.139 Dan Hanks: Then you can. You know what the story is, what the character should be doing, maybe what the themes are, and then you can start making it look nice. 322 00:56:23.420 --> 00:56:30.190 Julie E. Czerneda: You have to. You have to trust yourself. Sorry, Chris. I was just saying. You have to have that that confidence. 323 00:56:30.200 --> 00:56:38.929 Julie E. Czerneda: and you just sometimes have to put blinders on and just forge through for me. The the first third of a book goes easy, the start of the second third of the book. 324 00:56:38.950 --> 00:56:51.480 Julie E. Czerneda: It all feels like crap. And what's happening and what's going on. And I've just learned to just forget that, you know. Just ignore that voice. Just move ahead, even if it's slower and it's always slower by about 325 00:56:51.570 --> 00:57:16.769 Dan Hanks: no, I'd say 50 slower to get through there, and also not hit a point where it's speeding up a bit, and all of a sudden they're making sense, and I have to fix something. But I keep going forward. So just trust yourself that that will happen in this story. Just get to the end. You can fix anything after it's gonna suck to start with age. 326 00:57:16.770 --> 00:57:34.380 Dan Hanks: Is there any is it too late start writing with the intention of getting published. No, I got published at 40 full, I think, for the first time after 20 years of working on it. So I give up same. I mean, my first book came out when I was 44. I think 327 00:57:34.790 --> 00:57:49.539 Julie E. Czerneda: the other side this is never too young, because little did I know that some of the first Star Trek novels were written by teenagers when I was sitting there writing my own little fanfic, and never thought about anybody reading my stuff. So no, it's it's it's if you've got a story to tell tell it 328 00:57:49.980 --> 00:57:51.020 Dan Hanks: absolutely. 329 00:57:52.560 --> 00:57:57.439 Julie E. Czerneda: And I'm 68 now, and I've still got books to write so. Yes, it shouldn't be too late for you either. 330 00:57:59.530 --> 00:58:00.980 Chris "Fishbait" Panatier: That's fantastic. 331 00:58:02.970 --> 00:58:06.420 Julie E. Czerneda: Did you have any? 332 00:58:06.820 --> 00:58:15.150 Julie E. Czerneda: Let me see? What do you? Oh, what do you suggest I should do if I want my writing as a book or novel, or anything, be published in different places in the world, send it there. 333 00:58:16.190 --> 00:58:25.089 Julie E. Czerneda: Yeah, II so Sarah has clients from New Zealand. You know. If you want to be published somewhere else, you know, find out who send it to and send it there. 334 00:58:25.130 --> 00:58:30.050 Chris "Fishbait" Panatier: plus plus. Also, just remember that if you, for instance, if you're in the Us. Or the Uk. 335 00:58:30.280 --> 00:58:46.770 Chris "Fishbait" Panatier: And you sell a story or a novel, they will sell it for world English is is usually how it will typically sell. And then they have relationships with with agents in other countries, and they may buy it and translate it. My my second novel, Stringers. 336 00:58:46.810 --> 00:58:55.240 Chris "Fishbait" Panatier: is coming out in the Czech Republic. Like in a month or so. It's a got a giant pickle jar on the cover. 337 00:58:56.790 --> 00:58:58.309 Julie E. Czerneda: Do you like the pickle chart? 338 00:58:59.120 --> 00:59:10.000 Chris "Fishbait" Panatier: Oh, yes, there's that book. Has a an inanimate object, a literal jar of pickles as a character. So they put it. They put it right on the cover. 339 00:59:10.600 --> 00:59:12.250 Julie E. Czerneda: Excellent! 340 00:59:12.310 --> 00:59:28.320 Dan Hanks: I would say that it's it's incredibly easy compared to how it used to be when you had to print out your manuscript and then post it to to an agent or an editor. And you know, being able to just email, Sarah, my query was 341 00:59:28.510 --> 00:59:39.269 Dan Hanks: fantastic from the from the Uk to America. So you know, you shouldn't limit yourself as to your agents or your editors or publishers, or, you know plenty of publishers to open 342 00:59:39.370 --> 00:59:42.430 Dan Hanks: open submissions, so just go for it wherever you are 343 00:59:43.070 --> 00:59:47.440 Julie E. Czerneda: I will say that that's one thing that the Internet has brought to us all is is this 344 00:59:47.620 --> 01:00:07.720 Julie E. Czerneda: this awareness that everywhere you go, people love, science, fiction, fantasy and horror. There's it's not a it's not a product of of this neighborhood or this state or province or country. It is something that we all share the love of this stuff. The agent Blog Link. Could you put that back in the chat, please? Philips asked. 345 01:00:09.750 --> 01:00:15.630 Chris "Fishbait" Panatier: So the agent. It's it's her name. Just so, you know her name is Janet Reed. 346 01:00:15.720 --> 01:00:18.869 Chris "Fishbait" Panatier: and so I'll throw it back in the back in the chat. 347 01:00:19.940 --> 01:00:40.350 Chris "Fishbait" Panatier: Do you have any we can go a couple of more minutes. But did you have any things we haven't touched on yet. This is all been awesome. I knew we would never have trouble filling an hour with you guys, Dennis Powers just put the link back back in already. So there it is. That's who you want. She's amazing. There are, I would guess she probably has a couple of 1,000 blog entries. 348 01:00:40.890 --> 01:00:53.060 Chris "Fishbait" Panatier: and that is, that is definitely where you just want to start reading, and you will learn so much. That might be a good thing to finish with. 349 01:00:53.410 --> 01:01:04.499 Chris "Fishbait" Panatier: Okay, I've I've written 2 sci-fi books. But the next one that's coming out is a horror novel. It's called the Redemption of Morgan Bright. 350 01:01:04.590 --> 01:01:17.280 Chris "Fishbait" Panatier: and it comes out spring 2024. And it's basically a woman's sister dies in an asylum. No one has any answers as to why, so she has herself committed to get the answers. 351 01:01:18.210 --> 01:01:21.549 Julie E. Czerneda: nice, Dan. is that angry robot, too. 352 01:01:23.550 --> 01:01:24.500 Dan Hanks: It, Chris. 353 01:01:24.880 --> 01:01:26.400 Julie E. Czerneda: Okay. And 354 01:01:26.430 --> 01:01:41.599 Dan Hanks: as as this being the case for the past 2 years, I cannot tell you. Working on, I have. I have one at least one book coming out next year, but also I may have some books coming out as an editor. So thanks. Just going to be fun. 355 01:01:41.750 --> 01:01:43.609 Julie E. Czerneda: hopefully. Nice nice. 356 01:01:43.670 --> 01:01:56.710 I have been writing science fiction for the last 4 years. So I'm very happy to say that along in spring again with with Chris, I'm gonna have a book coming out, and it's called a change of place. And it's a fantasy in which there are a lot of toes. 357 01:01:56.750 --> 01:01:59.330 So change a change of place. So 358 01:01:59.340 --> 01:02:04.300 Julie E. Czerneda: fantasy, horror editing all kinds of good things. This has been awesome. 359 01:02:04.410 --> 01:02:06.279 Julie E. Czerneda: What do you think, guys? 360 01:02:06.660 --> 01:02:22.509 Chris "Fishbait" Panatier: Great questions. It's been awesome. And, guys, you can find me. You could find all of us. Michelle, already put all our links there. I'm available. I'll sit there and answer questions all day. So. Thanks so much for coming to this panel. And, Julie, thank you so much for moderating for us. 361 01:02:24.260 --> 01:02:43.620 Michelle @ ProWritingAid: Thank you all, Julie, Dan and Chris. This was great. I'm sure this will be rewatched many times. There was so much going on in the chat, and with all of the questions you answered. So thank you so much. And for being here, and thank you everybody for attending today. We have another session at 2 Pm. Eastern, so we hope to see you there. 362 01:02:44.450 --> 01:02:48.880 Julie E. Czerneda: Thanks, Michelle. Thanks. Everyone. Happy everyone.