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Michelle @ ProWritingAid: Welcome everyone welcome. It's the last day of Science Fiction writers Week. We have a big interview coming up this session, and we're super excited for it. So if you can see and hear me.

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Michelle @ ProWritingAid: please drop your name and location in the chat.

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Michelle @ ProWritingAid: and I have some special links to drop for you here as well.

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Michelle @ ProWritingAid: Alright. I see Tampa, Florida. Columbia, British Columbia, St. Lucia, Michigan, Ohio.

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Michelle @ ProWritingAid: as always, we have people joining us from all over the globe. We love to see that it looks like my sound and

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Michelle @ ProWritingAid: screen are working just fine, so we will go ahead and jump in. I do have a couple quick housekeeping items to go over with you before we begin with Jordan today.

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Michelle @ ProWritingAid: But welcome again. I'm Michelle with prorating aid, and we are so glad to have you all here.

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Michelle @ ProWritingAid: So first things first.

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Michelle @ ProWritingAid: My screen doesn't want a screen.

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Michelle @ ProWritingAid: My slides don't want to work for me, but I will just walk you through everything anyways. So the replays are available on the Hub until September 20 eighth. You can find any special offers from our speakers this week. Any available slides that they have shared with us the replays as well as any links that you need. You can see that on the hub until September 20 eighth.

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Michelle @ ProWritingAid: Also, we have an offer for you this week. If you would like to upgrade to prating aid premium, we have 40% off prorating aid yearly subscriptions for all of our Science Fiction writers. Week attendees. If you are looking to upgrade, it's a great time to do so, because it's a really great deal. Prorating aid, keeps adding new features and getting better. And also

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Michelle @ ProWritingAid: you upgrading allows us to keep putting on events like these for free for our writers community which we love doing so. If you're interested in upgrading, we encourage you to do so with this offer. That is good. Until also September 20 eighth. You can find the details for that on the writers. Week hub as well.

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Michelle @ ProWritingAid: If you have any questions as we are interviewing Jordan today, please drop those in the Q. And a box. As you can see, the chat moves very quickly, and I don't want to lose anything. So today's going to just be very casual, and a combination of my own questions in yours. So as we're speaking, feel free to drop your questions in the Q. And A. And I will get.

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Michelle @ ProWritingAid: I will do my best to get to as many of those as possible. Lastly, if you would like to keep the Science Fiction writers conversation going, join us in our private online community. We'd love to have you over there. If you look on the hub, the link to join the community is available there on the main page, and you just sign in with your pro writing 8 account details. It's free to join, and you can see us in the live event. Chat. All of the conversation threads currently happening are right there.

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Michelle @ ProWritingAid: all right. And with that being said, I believe we are ready to begin.

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Michelle @ ProWritingAid: So today I am joined by New York Times. Bestselling author, Jordan A. Fuego. She is the author of the Ray Bear Series, and the Disney Marvel comics, moon girl and devil dinosaur. She's a nebula award, ignite, award, audio award, and Hugo lodestar, finalist.

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And she's been featured in people, magazine and pr best books. Npr. Pop, culture hour, and Ala. Top 10, she writes about magic black girls who aren't magic all the time, because honestly, they deserve a vacation.

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Michelle @ ProWritingAid: If Waco lives in Atlanta with her husband and their tripod dog. Welcome, Jordan, so happy to have you with us today.

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Hi! Thank you for having me.

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Michelle @ ProWritingAid: Let me get my QA. Up here, so I can keep track of everything and the chat, and I believe we are

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Michelle @ ProWritingAid: good to go. So jumping right in Jordan. How did you get started? Tell us a little bit about you know the beginning of your writing journey?

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Jordan Ifueko: Sure. So for those who don't know. I'm the author of Ray Bear. This is the Uk edition. It's been released, and in a few different countries in different languages. I don't have the American edition with me, because I'm currently in the Uk visiting the typical

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Jordan Ifueko: publication process, as a lot of you are aware, involve getting an agent, and that's usually a very grueling query process. I went a different route. It's one I don't hear talked about as often. People who can make it work for them, though I think it's less grueling. So I basically had raybare in the works. I'd been working on it for years and years and years.

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Jordan Ifueko: but rather than trying to finish it up really quickly and query it, I decided to try and write a few short stories so I could get some publishing credits under my name. I eventually was published in strange horizons, which is a sci-fi and fantasy online magazine with a lot of industry traffic.

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Jordan Ifueko: So I had a short story published on there called Ocean, Inc. It was about the West African goddess, Ocean's handmaidens helping to match make people in the modern world.

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Jordan Ifueko: They lived in this high rise. It was like an office setting, but they were goddess as assistants, and they went and helped matchmake people in the city of Los Angeles, where I lived until recently that was published in strange horizons, and from there

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Jordan Ifueko: an agent read it, and actually came and reached out to me on Twitter and asked if I had anything longer. And it's one of those things about. You know, that I was really lucky right, but you have to make sure that luck catches you prepared. And so I was very fortunate, because I had the beginnings of what was Raybare to show her. I was able to polish up the first 5 chapters to make sure that she had a good hefty sample, and she decided to represent me.

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Jordan Ifueko: When I finished Raybert, she she told me. Please finish it, you know, in a few months, because I'm about to go out on sub

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Jordan Ifueko: she went out on sub with it, and it was sold within 2 weeks. So it was a very whirlwind story.

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Jordan Ifueko: you know. I didn't query to get my agent. I didn't wait long for a publisher to snap up the book once I had that representation and I think a lot of what went into that was

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Jordan Ifueko: having just a backlog of stuff that I'd been writing and polishing for years and years.

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Jordan Ifueko: And since then it's yeah. It's it's still been kind of a whirlwind of a journey. That was a 2 book deal raybare. It's sequel. Redemptor came out the following year in 2021 and once Raybert hit the bestseller list. I got more exposure so than Marvel

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Jordan Ifueko: reached out and asked if I wanted to write the next arc of the Moon Girl Devil Dinosaur Series.

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Jordan Ifueko: Netflix actually reached out to options the book before it was published, which was very strange. Because I didn't get to say anything about it until both books were on the world. It had been years since Rivera came out. And so that's in development at Netflix.

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Jordan Ifueko:  and yeah, I have another book coming out next year, another new middle grade book coming out the year after that I have. I'm very fortunate to have a healthy relationship with my agent, because that's one massive stroke of luck that I didn't have much control over, and nobody does. You don't really know if your agent is good or not, unless you like. Have other authors who have been represented by them, who are willing to talk to you.

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Other than that. You just kinda got to look at what they've done, and

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Jordan Ifueko: you know, trust your vibes once you're with them. If you don't feel they're representing you. Well.

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Jordan Ifueko: you might have to take that leap and look for someone else. But thankfully, yeah, that's been a really great relationship. And that's really important

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Jordan Ifueko: to the whole process.

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Michelle @ ProWritingAid: So as you're on this journey and beginning writing, and your love for for writing and for the genre. Did you have any writers you particularly found inspiration

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Jordan Ifueko: with and step 2?

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Jordan Ifueko: So I specifically write YA fiction. So a lot of my formative writers did also write for teens and children, but also a lot of them wrote for adults. I'm an enormous fan of NK. Jemisin, who has won about every award you can for writing fantasy.

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Jordan Ifueko: I'm also a big fan of needle Schusterman, who wrote the scythe arc of a side series, the unwind series. Extremely talented and empathetic sci-fi writer.

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Jordan Ifueko: And also a really lovely person. To hang out with. So yeah, I really admire those voices in terms of raybare itself.

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Jordan Ifueko: a lot of formative influences were West African folklore South Korean folklore as well. Some Indian like my parents are Nigerian immigrants, and Bollywood is extremely big in Nigeria. So it's a deeply multicultural story. That takes a lot from different myths and narratives.

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Jordan Ifueko: yeah, I think. If you are looking for

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Jordan Ifueko:  a good adult guide to how to build worlds especially. And Kay Jemison has done a few really cool podcasts as a guest.

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There's one, I think there's one called like How to build a world with NK. Jemisin. I would recommend

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Jordan Ifueko: that even that like, even though I'd already published rigor at that point listening to it, I was just like this opens up so much so you can never. You never stop learning. You never really feel like you've you've arrived, which is good and bad.

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Michelle @ ProWritingAid: So what made you decide to focus in on the ya audience for your writing.

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Jordan Ifueko: I started writing in that genre because middle grade and ya fiction were my lifelines as a kid. They are what made me into a writer. I have written shorter stories for adults. And eventually probably will write a a book for the adult space. But

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Jordan Ifueko: the coming of age. Narrative is a really universal one. It's one that the young are currently going through and the old remember shaping them. And so I think that's why YA ends up having a much broader appeal than to only teenagers. I think some of my oldest readers are in their fifties and sixties, and my youngest reader is 10

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Jordan Ifueko: and so it's it's got a really special place in my heart. But I do feel you know, as I said, I have a middle grade book coming out in 2 years. I do like expanding and I'm not afraid of the adult space. It's just a matter of thinking of the right story to go into it.

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Michelle @ ProWritingAid: What advice would you have for anybody watching today who's not sure, if they want to dive into ya, or writing for adults or middle grade, what? How? What advice would you have for helping them narrow it down to what their audience should be.

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Jordan Ifueko: I think that

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Jordan Ifueko: you know. Write what makes you excited, and the the kind of story it is will often give you a hint as to who your audience should be in terms of age? There are

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Jordan Ifueko: very complex themes that don't have easy resolutions that are more suited to an adult audience. It's not that kids can't understand complex concepts because they absolutely can. But the uniting theme of a lot of children's. NYA. Is a sense of hope and wonder, and I love writing about hope and wonder. But that's not suited for all stories. Some stories are about

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Jordan Ifueko: a resignation to what you can't know or to an experience. You can't change things like that which I would say might come more naturally to an adult audience.

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Jordan Ifueko:  yeah.

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Michelle @ ProWritingAid: what? Do you think that it's easier or harder to break into the Y scene versus writing for adult Science Fiction? Or do you think it's harder?

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Jordan Ifueko: It depends in what? In what capacity?

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Jordan Ifueko: I have found that some people find it easier making a living, writing for younger audiences, because you are more likely to get multiple book deals. So that's an ongoing. That's a little more stability for you. Right? However, the ya and children's market.

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Jordan Ifueko: it's it's gotta be like something that snatches the attention like you're trying to, especially since the Ya boom in the early 2 thousands. Publishers are always looking for the next blockbuster, right? Always looking for the next exciting thing. And so II know that for some people that can be a little

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Jordan Ifueko: thought consuming to the point where it it kind of limits their process because they're trying to become the next big thing. You don't have to be a Ya. Writer like that, but it is more sustainable

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Jordan Ifueko: in some ways. You, if you are getting deals from a publisher that sees you as a lead title. So publishers, you know, sign a number of books every year, but they kind of give the

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Jordan Ifueko: seal of approval to a few titles that they call lead titles. and that means those are the ones they're going to pour all the marketing behind. And it's not always fair.

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Jordan Ifueko: Sometimes it's a matter of which books are the best, and that's great. And others times. It's a matter of which of you got an editor that has a lot of sway with the publisher. Right? Which of the books are on trend with something else big. That's gonna come out. It's all of those factors, and there's very little you can do to control it.

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Jordan Ifueko:  I have a very positive relationship with my publisher Abrams. Books. We. They publish my ya books through the Infant Amulet. Abrams books is known for series like diary of a wimpy kid, right like some of those big big kind of churn about

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Jordan Ifueko: tween books, although they were not as well represented in the ya stage. So I think because they wanted to break into that space more, they were willing to make me a lead title and push put more weight behind me because they didn't have like their YA superstar books, at least for that season yet.

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Jordan Ifueko: So that's one benefit of going with publishers. That this isn't. This is kind of an extension to the question, but in terms of publishers like everyone wants to be published with the Big 5.

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Jordan Ifueko: You know, Penguin, Random House, etc.

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Jordan Ifueko: There are a lot of really Major Pros. And really, major cons to that. I got published with a middle middle publisher so still like a major publisher, but not one of the Big 5

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Jordan Ifueko: prose. I got a higher advance than any of my friends that got

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Jordan Ifueko: publisher the Big 5, because even if your book's really great right. You know, Penguin is also

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Jordan Ifueko: publishing Hillary Clinton's next memoir. Right? You're always going to be a tiny, tiny fish in this small small in this massive pond, whereas with a not big 5 publisher, you're going to be a bigger fish, and they're still going to have a good deal of reach. So yeah, I got paid a 6 figure advance for each of my first 2 books, which is kind of unheard of for debut.

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Jordan Ifueko:  however.

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Jordan Ifueko: because big 5 publishers have more reach, and they have that resources. If they do give you the golden stamp of approval. Your books are going to earn out a lot faster. Earning out for those who don't know is a phrase that means you start making money on royalties and advance is a number that they give you, or an amount of money that they give you when they buy your book right? And

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Jordan Ifueko: basically, after your book goes on sale, you don't make any money until that book has sold enough copies to earn out your advance. So if you got a low advance and your book

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Jordan Ifueko: sells all of these copies. Then you're gonna get to that money sooner, and you're more likely to get there. If you're with a publisher who can put your book everywhere like, think target airports stuff like that.

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Jordan Ifueko: whereas with a not big 5 publisher you might be slower to earn out your advance. But it doesn't matter, because you don't have to give your advance back so you can just kind of, you know, have fun, or at least living off of your advance while you write your next book right? And you might not see your book as often like. I've never seen my book in a target. I have seen them in airports which was really exciting.

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Jordan Ifueko: and they are likely to be in, say, your Barnes and noble, your general bookstores a lot of Indie bookstores. But yeah, it's there are pretty serious pros and cons. And I wouldn't say one is better than the other, just different.

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Jordan Ifueko:  yeah. So

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Michelle @ ProWritingAid: we're gonna go to the first audience question, Marilyn asks with your Ya demographic, do you have a specific avatar? You're writing, for for example, age, culture, pronoun interest, or did do you think of ya more generally when writing

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Jordan Ifueko: if by avatar, do you mean if you mean protagonist? I definitely don't really settle on like, oh, I'm going to write

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Jordan Ifueko: I'm going to write a protagonist that will appeal to this audience right? My protagonists come to me and I find them interesting. And so I write about them.

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Jordan Ifueko: The raybare books are about a

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Jordan Ifueko: massive Pangea Empire continent like it's a bunch of continents that have been magically hewn together by this kind of egomaniac emperor who rules the kingdom, or, like all of his descendants, rule this massive empire.

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Jordan Ifueko: through the help of this council that's mentally bonded. And

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Jordan Ifueko: what interested me about that was the concept of a girl who was groomed for this high echelon of power, who had, like major imposter syndrome like she didn't think she was supposed to be there. She has very good reasons to think she's not supposed to be there.

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Jordan Ifueko: And yet it fulfills a need for her that is very primal, a need for family and for belonging. So no, I didn't necessarily set out and say, like I am going to write about a black teen girl with magical powers and anxiety, because that will fit into this niche. It was just that's

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Jordan Ifueko: II thought of someone who interested me, and I think that's honestly the best you can do. I do know writers who basically try and like be super on trend, and they get burned out so fast they get burned out so fast thinking about like, what is the next representation? That's the hot representation. I'm just like, no.

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Jordan Ifueko: write what you know. Write what's important to you. If it's not a marginalization or an identity, you belong to get a sensitivity. Reader. My next book, which I am not permitted to announce yet, even though it's coming out like less than a year. Publishers are weird, anyway.

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Jordan Ifueko: it has a protagonist with a disability that I don't have and so it's actually been a really interesting, very work, intensive process of making sure. I represent that disability respectfully.

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Jordan Ifueko: And accepting feedback from the sensitivity, reader, instead of being precious about what I wrote, you know. So that's really important. I hope that answers the question.

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Michelle @ ProWritingAid: Our next question is from Alex. They ask, what were the hardest obstacles to overcome on your way to become a published author also. Was it hard to finish your book rapidly when, before that you spent years writing it? How did you switch gears from that slow writing regime to a rapid one with a deadline.

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Jordan Ifueko: I still to this day don't have a very healthy coping mechanism for doing that. It is. It is difficult. When, before you are published.

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Jordan Ifueko: you are, you have so much time to tweak and refine. And then once you get that book deal, especially if it was a multiple book deal. It's like, Oh, we love this book that you wrote and submitted to us. It's great. It took you 12 years. Okay, cool. We need the next one in 9 months.

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Jordan Ifueko: And I did not have a healthy work. Life balance. A enormous obstacle for me is that I have very severe Adhd, that I manage with medication and some lifestyle things, and it can be very hard to establish a routine

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Jordan Ifueko: which is what is necessary, I think another difficult thing is that I write most easily at night, like some people just have literally genetic circadian rhythms. That means they're going to be awake and alert and concentrate and most creative at night. I'm one of those people, but I am married to someone who has a steady day job. So it's like, if I want to spend any time with my husband, I need to figure out how to write during the day when he's working so we can spend time together right? And so you're gonna have a lot of different

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Jordan Ifueko: challenges like that. I think it was Ursula Kayleigh Gwynn, who was a mother, and obviously one of the most prolific and influential fantasy writers of all time. At this point. She said, the key to learning how to

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Jordan Ifueko: manage all of that is to juggle all of the balls and know which balls are made of like plastic, and which ones are made of glass.

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Jordan Ifueko: And so you do have to juggle them. But you have to. You have to be good at prioritizing, and that has saved me. It's like, okay, I have so much to do. It would be so easy to be overwhelmed and just give up or just work around the clock and not take care of myself. But I need to know what is important in the next hour.

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Jordan Ifueko: Is it answering those emails? Is it outlining the scene? Is it going to my yoga class so that my body hunched over my laptop for 10 HA day doesn't fall apart, you know.

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Jordan Ifueko: so yeah, it's difficult. Be really good at priority prioritizing things in both the short term and the long term. That's equally important.

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Michelle @ ProWritingAid: Hello, we have another question. Lashonda asks, what advice. Would you offer a new author starting in this genre now?

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Jordan Ifueko: The advice I give to all authors? Regardless of when they started? Because it's something that's going to remain important.

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Jordan Ifueko: Know what your protagonist wants, and know what you are trying to say. Those are often very different things. And one of the hallmarks of a book that will immediately get

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Jordan Ifueko: flagged as as

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Jordan Ifueko: hard to fix by. Publishers are ones that seem like it doesn't have like a uniting theme. So I'm not saying your books have to tell a lesson, but it is very apparent when

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Jordan Ifueko: a author doesn't know what they're trying to say. What you could be trying to say might be something very basic, like grief grows and destructs when it is ignored and not addressed right like you're not saying like anything moral about grief. You're just saying this is a thing that is true about grief. That is enough to be a theme, right? And so you can imagine if you create this massive, beautiful world, say, it's about like

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Jordan Ifueko: dragon riders, and, like, you know, an corrupt regime and the people in it. Can you imagine how those that story would take different, unique tones if it was about grief?

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Jordan Ifueko: Right? Because we, as speculative sci-fi and fantasy writers, we get really swept up away by the details of our world, while often forgetting those details, are not going to stick with a reader, unless they can relate it to some deep theme that they can resonate with within themselves.

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Jordan Ifueko: I think you will see that of a lot of the most famous fantasy in sci-fi fiction that it has a uniting theme that propels the story forward. So that's what you want to say. Then there's what your protagonist wants just what they want.

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And

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Jordan Ifueko: it is often very hard to follow a story through the eyes of someone who doesn't want anything.  and what your your protagonist wants will change at the beginning of this story. What the protagonist wants more than anything is a hug from her mother.

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Jordan Ifueko: That's it. She is willing to do anything, including kill someone for the approval of this woman. Right? And that's what's pushing her forward through this book. But that changes. Because, as you ask the protagonist as a writer like, Well, why do you want that so much? You realize? Well, maybe it's not even specifically about a hug from this specific person. Maybe it's a sense of feeling like you belong to someone.

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And then, as you mature, does that turn into belonging to a world belonging to a community. And then what do you owe to that world? What do you owe to that community? And you can see the protagonist grow and change.

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Jordan Ifueko:  a fun exercise I do in my writing workshops when I host them is Your protagonist wants a sandwich.

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Jordan Ifueko: I don't care if your protagonist is a king, or if they're a beggar boy, or if they're an alien princess, what they want most in the world for this next hour is a sandwich. Why can't they get it?

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And you will learn so much about your world, even just with that thought exercise right? The beggar boy can't get a sandwich because he's poor. The king can't get a sandwich because he's a figurehead, and he's not allowed to eat in front of people because he's considered to be

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Jordan Ifueko: superhuman, and that would

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Jordan Ifueko: weaken his image, you know, with people he's supposed to be so perfect that he doesn't even need sustenance like you can go so far with those things, but it begins with what your protagonist wants and if and how that changes.

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Jordan Ifueko: that's one. And then also what you are trying to say

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Jordan Ifueko: with your story or with your world.

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Michelle @ ProWritingAid: That was very well said. Thank you. So with your raybare duology, I imagine you had to do a lot of research. There's so much into the world and the characters and all of the mythology you're putting in. What was your research process, like

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Jordan Ifueko: extensive is what it was. I don't regret anything I did about the world building of the Ray Bear world. I do know that if I could. If I have to start from scratch again, I will never again create a panga continent world in which every culture was loosely based on a real world culture.

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Jordan Ifueko:  it required so much research to represent all of them in an interesting, respectful, magical way. That's something that Netflix writers are on strike right now, and I support them. 100. But that is one thing I have found to be overwhelming for them in a way where they're just like, okay, so cool. Tell us about, like, just little tidbits about these cultures. And I'm just like

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Jordan Ifueko: tidbit. One of these cultures is based on the Mayan Empire. The other one is based on the Yoruba Empire. The other one is based on Joseph Period, Korea, like it's good you're gonna have to do a lot man like there's a lot there. I was a very ambitious teenager because I did start the earliest versions of this book when I was a teenager

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and so you're gonna have to deal with the delusions of grandeur and ambition. That was my team self, and how it ended up being this book.

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Jordan Ifueko: So yes, the answer is a lot. And

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Jordan Ifueko: I watched so many documentaries on different civilizations, and whatever I could get my hands on, I bought a J store subscription like, so I could get my hands on like.

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Jordan Ifueko: you know you. You'll just get stuck on the weirdest things right? You will spend a day researching something that ends up being one sentence in your book. One of those is like

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in the second of my books. It's called Redemptor. There is a king named Zuri of Gabanti and he's kind of a Scarlet Pimpernel character in that. He like is kind of. He's like a pretty boy, and you know he's like a court, a courtier, and he's flirtatious. And he does it as an act.

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Jordan Ifueko: So people don't know that he's badass. And so I had to figure out. What sport would he play in his spare time? But he's based on his. His culture is based on an East African specific culture. So I'm just like I have to figure out what sports they played in pre-colonial East Africa. Just so I can give this guy a hobby that might get mentioned to this sentence once

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like it's that's what it. That's what it takes, man, that's what it takes. If you decide to really try and make a world that rich.

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Michelle @ ProWritingAid: So yeah, the answer is a lot. How do you stop yourself from going down the rabbit hole a little too much like. What's your limit?

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Jordan Ifueko: Again.

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Jordan Ifueko: the severe Adhd means. I'm not great at stopping rabbit holes. I'm famously bad at not falling down rabbit holes or catching myself once I'm there. The bad advice is to let yourself wear yourself out where I'm just like I have researched this rabbit hole to the core of the earth. And so now I will push it aside.

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Jordan Ifueko: The healthy answer is to be very self aware of how your mind works. And so if you sensed yourself going down, one of those is

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Jordan Ifueko: II use timers a lot. I'll set a timer like I'm gonna let myself indulge on this for a little while. Or I'll take a picture of something that I want to think about later, like the amount of times. I'll literally like, take a picture of my computer screen with my phone. Just so my brain can think you've put it somewhere. This thing you were thinking about. You come up with all sorts of quirky coping mechanisms when you have

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Jordan Ifueko: neuro divergence. But yeah, II think self-awareness will help you a lot in terms of getting distracted.

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Jordan Ifueko: I think it. I think it's also good to visualize what you want by a certain point. In time I'll think 6 months from now I want this book to be almost done.

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Jordan Ifueko: and I'll remind myself of that, and I'll remind myself that it's the thing I want the most. And so, even if something seems really shiny and attractive, for, like the next 2 days like to work on instead or to research, I can remember that the shiniest, most attractive thing is to finish this book and get myself back on track that way.

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Michelle @ ProWritingAid: So how has your life changed since Ray Bear came out.

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Jordan Ifueko: It's been really surreal, I mean, I'm in Europe for the second time this year. I don't live in Europe. I live in Atlanta, and it's because I get you know where your book gets translated into another language. Sometimes the publisher wants to fly you out for release. Sometimes another book festival wants, you know you as a panelist.

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Jordan Ifueko: and that's really cool. It's lovely. It's glamorous, but it is a lot of whiplash, because most of the job is putting your butt in a chair in a room by yourself, and so for that to be your job for like

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Jordan Ifueko: 10 months, and then you have 3 months

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Jordan Ifueko: touring to rooms of like lovely but screaming teenagers like, it's like, it's it's very yeah. It's it's there isn't a lot of balance to it. And

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But yeah, like

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Jordan Ifueko: my life has changed in a way that I'm still adjusting to

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Jordan Ifueko:  these days. It is wise for you to have a presence online. It makes you more marketable. It gets you more opportunities sometimes. Right. If I hadn't had a social media present online. My agent wouldn't have been able to find me when she found my story right?

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Jordan Ifueko: and if I hadn't kept a somewhat entertaining social media presence online, I wouldn't have gotten my booking agent, and my booking agent is what is who arranges me with things like this, like with panels that are not directly associated with the release of a book, but are things you do in between

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Jordan Ifueko:  and so

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Jordan Ifueko: that's an adjustment right? Being not only a name in a new literary space, but also being a

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Jordan Ifueko: even mildly public figure, can be very strange and very distracting.

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Jordan Ifueko:  and The other thing I have clinically is anxiety, and that doesn't help. It does not help to have lots of people who have opinions about you, even if they're mostly positive even that can give you crippling anxiety. Because then you think I'm going to disappoint all of you right. I'm going to write something you don't like. I'm going to say something I didn't think through. I'm going to, you know.

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Jordan Ifueko:  I'm I'm going to remain me, and you're going to grow up and not be into my stuff anymore. You know things like that. So

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Jordan Ifueko: that has been a big change exposure. Having people very invested in your work and in you, as a person takes an adjustment. And it's kind of a loose, loose situation, because when you have dry spells like you're really in between project and all of that attention goes away. That also doesn't feel great. So

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Jordan Ifueko: I have a therapist. I've had a therapist since I got a book deal, and it's been very, very great. And I will say, in terms of some really, really joyous moments are

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Jordan Ifueko: When you get a letter from a reader who needed your book for their specific reason at a certain point in their life, and your book was able to give them something that really helped them. Nothing beats that. Nothing ever feels to me better than that. Not getting up on a stage, not getting invited to fancy award shows those individual intimate

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Jordan Ifueko: letters with reader from readers and into brief interactions in person, are to me what make it all worth it? that's what I think of when I think, did I achieve my dream? That's what I think of. It's not the Netflix deal. It's those people.

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Jordan Ifueko: and

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Jordan Ifueko: yeah, it's moments like that you kind of hold on to when you are feeling a lot of self-doubt

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Michelle @ ProWritingAid: you touched on the marketing. So you had a social media presence built before the book deal came. So what advice do you have for our attendees today about building their social media presence? And what do you think are the most important things they need to be doing.

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Jordan Ifueko: Oh, it! It entirely depends on your audience. I have to be on Tiktok.

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Jordan Ifueko: Great deal of my audience are teens and young adults right?

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Jordan Ifueko: I am on Instagram. Twitter is actually oh, I don't know what Twitter is like anymore. It's not twitter anymore, but round about the times when I was on Twitter. I have not been on Twitter for years now, because it was twitter. But

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Jordan Ifueko: again, that really helped me starting out right. That's how my agent found me. The the landscape might have changed now I don't know what like the big publishing hub is where you can see a lot of agents and editors post things. It might still be Twitter, in which case it's valuable for you to be on there, even if it drives you nuts.

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Jordan Ifueko:  It is also I cannot express this enough so valuable to make relationships with other authors at the same stage where you are.

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Jordan Ifueko:  and because when you come up together, that's a bond that is very, very hard to threaten.

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Jordan Ifueko: And you will need friends. You will need friends for mental and emotional reasons. You will need friends to remember the joy of what it's like to read, stories that you didn't write, that you still love and can be a fan of friends are also really great for industry connections extremely like you'll get

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Jordan Ifueko: to have events with people that might have had a book that was more successful than you, right? And they're kind of like giving you that exposure. But it's so important not to make friends just for that reason, because it's really obvious when people do that. And it's like off-putting.

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Jordan Ifueko: So yeah, social media. make friends be a real friend, not a user. Lift other people up and they will lift you up back

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Jordan Ifueko: and find your niche like some people will follow you.

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Jordan Ifueko: Because they like. How you describe things like there are people I followed for extremely different reasons, and all of them were writers, most people, at least, when you're starting out, are not going to follow you because they want to learn more about your book.

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Jordan Ifueko: That's just the reality. They're gonna follow you because you seem interesting, or because you talk about things that interest them, or because you talk about things in a way that make them laugh like.

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Jordan Ifueko: you know, those are the reasons a lot of people follow others on social media.

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Jordan Ifueko: so keep those things in mind. Think, what do my friends like about me, and you know, just try and be your best self. On social media. There are so many different ways to approach it, but I will say this.

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Jordan Ifueko: your popularity on social media

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Jordan Ifueko: often will not affect book sales that much. What it will do is get you a lot of industry and peer connections that will help your book be a success. But the thing that is going to put your book on bestseller list is the strong support of a publisher.

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Jordan Ifueko: That's what it's gonna that's what puts books on bestseller lists.  there are a few exceptions where, if like, if you have a massive following. And by massive I mean, like

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Jordan Ifueko: over 300,000 followers. Which I do not have. That can tilt the scale a little more. But

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Jordan Ifueko: yeah, for the most part, what the books get on bestseller list, because editors and publishing industries make sure they get on there through pushing it, pushing it, pushing it and placing it in bookstores where they're going to get a lot of traffic.

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Jordan Ifueko: So

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Jordan Ifueko: social media is very useful. But if you don't feel like you're blowing up on social media. Do not beat yourself up about it, because that's not in the end what makes best sellers. It's not.

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Jordan Ifueko: It can be comforting to feel like it does, because it gives you agency right like, oh, if I just if I just really hit these Tik toks like my book's gonna really sell. It's your publisher.

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Jordan Ifueko: So that's good to remember.

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Jordan Ifueko: We have a question for young adults. What is better, Tiktok or Instagram.

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Jordan Ifueko: Both for different reasons. Tiktok is amazing for discovery. So lots of people I have more followers on Tiktok than I have on Instagram, which surprises me because Tiktok was a big scary. You know, new

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Jordan Ifueko: frontier when I joined years ago. But that is because the algorithm is aggressive in pushing your things to people it thinks might be interested, whereas, Instagram, you are more likely to be followed by people who have already heard about who you are. Reels is also a bit more of a wild card. Reels is so hard to

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Jordan Ifueko: predict.

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Jordan Ifueko: and it also is given to sometimes a narrower audience. Whereas tik Tok, it'll be like, well, this person liked something that a friend of theirs liked, and they're interested in this. So hey, we're gonna put in front of them. Just just see what happens. And you can get a bunch of followers overnight that way. Sometimes.

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Jordan Ifueko: I will say with Instagram. I think it's much better to stay on one theme. That's more the Vibe of Instagram on Instagram. You will find that I talk mostly about writing, and where I'm traveling, and silly jokes about writing, and the occasional

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Jordan Ifueko: the occasional

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Jordan Ifueko: review of a piece of media that I thought was really interesting a book. I loved a movie that I thought had elements that could really improve. I recently had kind of a viral reel about the Barbie movie that people did not like, but it still went viral. And so, hey, you can whereas on Tiktok I talk about a variety of things because tickers tend to follow you for you.

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Jordan Ifueko: not necessarily for the specific

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Jordan Ifueko: which that you know

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Jordan Ifueko: you might do for your career. So on, Tiktok, I talk about writing. I talk about religion. I talk about

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Jordan Ifueko: random stuff I'm doing that week. And funny stories. Yeah. And also just responding to whatever the discourse on my for you, page is like.

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Jordan Ifueko: just Yeah, you you don't have to be afraid to be a tiktoker and think of yourself as a somewhat interesting person to be honest. The authors that spend all of their Tiktok time pushing their book

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Jordan Ifueko: are like the least popular authors, especially in like book tick tock communities because it doesn't seem like they're there to

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Jordan Ifueko: participate

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Jordan Ifueko: in the I don't know, I guess, in the Creator community as much as read my book, read my book, read my book, I found another creative way to say, to read my book and like, there's nothing wrong with having some of your things. Be that because that's one of the aspects of you. Right? But I have found a lot more success with

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Jordan Ifueko: you know.

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Jordan Ifueko: expanding interests, and what I'm willing to share. And what I'm willing to like make jokes about or talk seriously about.  So yeah, that's important.

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Jordan Ifueko: There are also lots of different like.

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Jordan Ifueko: you know, algorithm optimizing tricks, you can do. But every time someone gives advice that works, they change the algorithm. So like any advice you hear on that respect is pretty dated. One that might stand the test of time is to always turn on your captions, not just because that's a responsible thing to do for people who are hearing and disabled.

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Jordan Ifueko: But

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Jordan Ifueko: It means everything you say gets made into a keyword. So that's why you'll see tiktoks that don't even have a description that went viral. They don't have any hashtags on it. It's because they turn the captions on and tiktok if they said things like.

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Jordan Ifueko: you know, fantasy or book production or feminism like if you just say it, and it's in the captions Tiktok knows to throw it on the for you pages of people who have shown interest in those things. So that's kind of an easy thing you can make sure to do.

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Jordan Ifueko: But yeah, there are lots of people who have done blogs and professionally boost your algorithm things. And I'm not one of those people. I'm just a creator who has noticed something's work.

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Michelle @ ProWritingAid: So we would love to hear about your experience working with Marvel. We'd have at least one person who has asked, How how did Marvel approach you? How did moon grow and devil dinosaur happen? And what has that whole experience been like?

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Jordan Ifueko: So marvel approached by Agent after the raybare book came out. I got approached by a few different people who enjoyed it, and oftentimes it'll be individual editors at Marvel or at Disney, or at different places that read your book and thought.

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Jordan Ifueko: I wanna see if she has anything else. An editor or a person at Disney read Raybare, and then approached me to see if I had any ideas for a preschool Disney show, and I was like what like I wrote a fantasy book about teenagers. But like, that's you know, you never know what you're going to get, because people like your voice, and they like the way you tell stories. They're just.

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Jordan Ifueko: you know, she was like, hey, look! This is what I do at Disney. I do. The preschool shows. I like your book. Do you want to talk like you're gonna get some of those and so with Marvel.

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Jordan Ifueko: Yeah, some editors at Marvel had read the Rayburn books liked my voice. Asked if I was interested and I was they have reached out with other projects that I'm not sure about. But it can be a little daunting to

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Jordan Ifueko: write existing. IPIP. Is intellectual property, so like Spider-man is

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Jordan Ifueko: Marvel's IP. I think it's yes yes, sorry with the whole sony marvel thing. II sometimes get confused. But

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Jordan Ifueko: yeah. So

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Jordan Ifueko: that means there are things you can and can't write about. Spider-man. There are things that the company that owns the IP can forbid you from writing about and I had relative freedom, but I did find it daunting to write for a character who had existed already. Right? So I needed to like

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Jordan Ifueko: real moonro comics. See? Like, oh, are we doing the same thing in the comic world. But we're doing in the TV show world because those are 2 different worlds in the comics. She's 9 in the TV show. She's 13 and the comics. She likes rollerskates, but I think in the TV show her parents like own a roller rink.

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Jordan Ifueko: And so, as when I wrote the latest comic arc. I had to be like, Okay, how can we get her in the roller rink if her parents don't own it? Do her parents know she has superpowers. Yet yes, no, like all of those things. Instead of you, just like being imaginative and thinking of a story. There are all of these like research parameters and things that are noos. And

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Jordan Ifueko:  yeah, 1. One story that I might regret telling is that, like 1 one thing I was forbidden from doing is having lunella like, basically she needs a part for something. And so she like

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Jordan Ifueko: in in my original draft, she basically steals a snack delivery robot from stark industries and the comics. And the editor was like, Yeah, we don't really feel great about just her stealing. And to me, I'm just like

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Jordan Ifueko: it's bad for, like a young black girl to steal from like a billionaire weapons manufacturer like, okay, fine like we'll make it. So instead, she improves the bot she takes the part she needs, and she puts a part that's even better on it, like it's just stuff like that where it's like, even if you don't agree at all. It's just

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Jordan Ifueko: the boss is the boss. You got it, and when you're used to writing your own, IP. You know I am the boss of the rayber world. It can feel different. It can feel weird.

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Jordan Ifueko:  so yeah, stuff stuff stuff like that. And I have a very positive relationship with Marvel. By the way, yeah, almost all of my stories are are really great. They're really patient with me, with my deadlines. And they were really positive and supportive. The editors that I in particular was working with.

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Jordan Ifueko:  But yeah, that was my experience. Mixed bag.

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Jordan Ifueko: I think, working for IP, your biggest, your biggest joy is going to be. If you loved the character already. That's going. If you love the character. If you're already an expert. That's going to bring a lot to your experience because writing IP doesn't make doesn't usually pay as much as getting published with your own IP,

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Jordan Ifueko: right? Cause you're getting a much, much smaller sliver of a pie that already existed rather than I am. The pie. So. Yeah.

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Jordan Ifueko: that's been my experience with Marvel. So far I might do something else with them. I have not yet decided. But If you love the characters.

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Jordan Ifueko: And you get approached, I would say, go for it. If you're not excited about the characters, really think it through, because it's a lot of commitment for something that you're not

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Jordan Ifueko: already kind of invested in.

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Michelle @ ProWritingAid: I was. That was so surreal. I was just like I wrote about team stabbing each other like, anyway. But hey, no, I have. I have lots of ideas. So maybe someday never say never.

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Michelle @ ProWritingAid: I'd love to get to some more user questions. Since we're running low on time. An anonymous attendee asks, what do you recommend for someone who is balancing a successful non writing career with a burgeoning writing career.

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Jordan Ifueko: So I have many friends who have been or are in that position. getting a royalty advance that allows you to quit your job is exceedingly rare.

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Jordan Ifueko: I had kind of a Cinderella story, and also I was married to someone who had a stable job, and that's huge, like, I, more writers need to talk about that like this is this is an industry where, even if you get paid, a 6 figure royalty advance, that's 35% of that

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Jordan Ifueko: is, or is it 45% of that goes to like taxes in your agent? So chunk already in half, and then that remaining half gets paid to you in 3 parts that can sometimes be over years.

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Jordan Ifueko: Right? So

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Jordan Ifueko: You get paid once at signing the contract, another at delivering the product so like the edited manuscript, and then again at publication. So

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Jordan Ifueko: you know, if you need more time to write the book, that's another like 2 months. You don't get paid if they need to move the publishing date. You could like not see another payment for 2 years, because something like a massive pandemic happened, you know, like, it's it's

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Jordan Ifueko: yeah, and so often writers will still have jobs. Even writers who have written books, you recognize

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Jordan Ifueko: still had to keep a job of some kind. A lot of them were lucky enough to get to go part-time. I was exceedingly lucky and got to go and got to quit my day job altogether and focus on writing

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Jordan Ifueko:  But yeah.

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Jordan Ifueko: I have found that

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Jordan Ifueko: some writers will give kind of dire but really

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Jordan Ifueko: straightforward instructions like you don't get to really have hobbies anymore. If you have a day job, then you come home. Writing. Your book is your hobby, even though it's no longer a hobby because you got a book. Feel right? You gotta make sacrifices like that, or I have found some writers who were like, I'm going to take the risk of just getting like a fun part time job

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Jordan Ifueko: and then supplementing my income with my book deals because it is so hard for me to write when I'm drained from my full-time job that it's worth it for me to, you know

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Jordan Ifueko:  do some fun creative consulting for a few hours a week instead of have my stable career in finance, or whatever. While I write this book. Some people have decided not to give up their successful non writing career, but to put it on hold. So

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Jordan Ifueko: I have a friend who

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Jordan Ifueko: II keep forgetting exactly what he did for a living that wasn't writing. He writes these really hard sci-fi novels. I'm not gonna say his name, because if I say something wrong about his career, I'm gonna be embarrassed when I talk to him later. But yeah, like, basically, he writes hard sci-fi to the point where, like these are excellent books. But I understand maybe 70% of them, maybe less sometimes. And he was able to write that because he had this big scientific career, right? And he decided to take a break

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Jordan Ifueko: for I think I think he set a time on. He's like I'm gonna save enough. So I can kind of coast for like a year. And I'm gonna devote that completely to writing like mad.

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Jordan Ifueko: So it's hard. There are not easy answers. But people do and have done it.

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Jordan Ifueko: There are people who didn't intend to quit their jobs, and then their books were such a runaway success. But they did. That's something that happens. And there are people whose books were a moderate success, and they loved the experience. But they still were not in a position to quit their day job. And that's extremely common, and it is in no way a failure at all. It's so common.

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Jordan Ifueko:  so? Yeah.

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Michelle @ ProWritingAid: Marilyn says you said something interesting. Your protagonist comes to you. Do your characters speak their words to you, or does it feel like you driving, and more consciously writing the narrative

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Jordan Ifueko: both oftentimes, especially when I'm tired and I'm on a deadline, and I just got to get it out. It's the latter. I do kind of roll my eyes sometimes at writers who basically talk like they're an oracle for the characters that exist in the ether like I just sit here, and then these people come to me and speak through me like there will be moments like that, and those are fun and cool and magical. But most of the book. If you are writing a piece of literature.

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Jordan Ifueko: you are going to need to think through what people say, and why? Right? It's going to be an extremely conscious process of you writing out the narrative and

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Jordan Ifueko: when certain things get said, how you can use people's dialogue to segue into the next scene. Right? That's that's like a very, very structural boring thing to do where it's like. Look.

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Jordan Ifueko: this guy is going to profess his love for this person, but also we need them to get across the street and into this building, and we need to somehow get to a week later from now, and that needs to be like a transition that happens without losing the momentum of the dialogue. So you just gotta like figure that out like it's a puzzle piece.

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Jordan Ifueko:  it's it's it's less.

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Jordan Ifueko: It's less glamorous than the idea of you know, characters always coming to you. But there are those moments, too, like I'm gonna be honest about that, too. There are those like quiet, magical moments where like the protagonist of my next book, which is in the world of Raber. But it is not about the same people.

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Jordan Ifueko: I just I kind of like could almost feel

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Jordan Ifueko:  feel this new person coming, and how completely different she was from my other protagonist! How powerful she was compared to my other protagonist, how she would see my first protagonist, you know Ray Bear is about someone who is lifted into this, you know.

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sacred Council, and she is thought to be almost a goddess by the populace. And so how would this new character, who has never been given, given any power in her entire life? How would she see someone like that protagonist, you know.

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Jordan Ifueko: so you will have those magical moments, but I think it's good not to

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Jordan Ifueko: expect that to be the meat of what writing is writing is so fulfilling, and it demands a lot of you.

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Jordan Ifueko: And you will know if if it is for you, by how you feel once you have been able to write, because for me, no matter how hard and tiring, and I don't want to be here. I don't want to be in front of this computer. I want to go home, even though I'm already home.

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Jordan Ifueko: Every time I managed to write after I feel like that was the best thing I could have done with that hour was writing. It is the best thing I could have done. I do not wish I had spent it any other way, and that's what keeps you going.

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Michelle @ ProWritingAid: That was very well said, thank you. We have time, for I think, one more question. And something important I wanted to touch on, Andrea has said, can you speak to your success, and what it means to you as a woman and a writer of color, and what it may mean to your readers.

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Jordan Ifueko: It is still a little surreal to think that

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Jordan Ifueko: Some people have started writing because they saw me do it. But I know that's actually true. I get letters through my website sometimes from I think one I got recently was from a 14 year old girl in East Africa who was just like I saw that you were writing books, and I decided, I want to write books. How do I write books? And that's insane

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Jordan Ifueko: to think of, because, you know, all of us in our we're just like little nerds here, just writing our little stories because we we have to, because we have this weird compulsion to do so. And

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Jordan Ifueko: you never know who's watching and so that is very special. And it's also very nerve wracking because you didn't really sign up to be a role model on purpose like you just wrote stories, because that's what you do. You're a little story writing machine, and

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Jordan Ifueko: it's very special, and it's a responsibility. I take very seriously. There are ways. I could be messy on the Internet that I decide not to be just like.

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Jordan Ifueko: do I want to inspire a youth today? Then maybe I shouldn't be messy. Okay?

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Jordan Ifueko: yeah. So it's a privilege. It's a gift. And it is so important to to pull up other people once you have gotten

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Jordan Ifueko: upon like once you've gotten onto the ledge to pull up other people after you. If you don't. it is so lonely, and you start to you like II know authors who are like that. There's one in particular who's very successful in my field, who does see all other authors, all new and upcoming authors as competition. How are they going to take away the little piece of the pie I have managed to get for myself? And it is the loneliest possible way to think.

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Jordan Ifueko: and this is by definition a very lonely profession, and anything you do to make it lonelier will drive you insane like that person is not a mentally healthy person, despite her success. And it's honestly, very sad.

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Jordan Ifueko: So pull other people up after you. If you are a person who belongs to a marginalization that

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Jordan Ifueko: got a little opportunity that most people of your demographic don't get

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Jordan Ifueko: pull other people up if they are if you have a friend with an unpublished manuscript, and you really really like it, you know, you might very quietly, you know, say to your agent like, Hey, I know you have like a slush pile like 8 million

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Jordan Ifueko: files on. This book is really special. So you know, okay, you know, you can be the little link. You can be the

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Jordan Ifueko: little nudge that someone else needed to get their big break. You can be the person who pushes a new upcoming novel on your socials, because the debut novel has 500 followers, and you have 20,000 like you can be that person, and it is so fulfilling. And it's so important once you get there.

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Michelle @ ProWritingAid: Well, thank you so much, Jordan. This was such an inspirational talk, and I'm going to send you a copy of the chat. Just so you can see all of the amazing praise and feedback you've been getting this whole time. Thank you so much for being here and sharing all of your knowledge and insight with us. We really appreciate it.

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Jordan Ifueko: Thank you for having me. This was really fun.

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Michelle @ ProWritingAid: and thank you to everybody for attending the replay will be up by tomorrow morning, so you can check it out again and please check out Jordan's website and her Instagram and Tiktok, and just give her all the follows and support. Have a great rest of your day, everyone. We have our very last session. It's a networking session coming up in just under an hour, and then that's the end of Science Fiction writers week. So thank you so much, and we will see you next time.

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Jordan Ifueko: Bye, bye.