WEBVTT 1 00:00:13.980 --> 00:00:22.349 Michelle @ ProWritingAid: Hello, everyone! Hello! If you can see and hear me, please drop your name and location in the chat. 2 00:00:22.930 --> 00:00:27.199 Michelle @ ProWritingAid: Welcome to our first session of fantasy writers. Week. 3 00:00:29.510 --> 00:00:33.560 Michelle @ ProWritingAid: Hello! I see Atlanta, Georgia. 4 00:00:34.030 --> 00:00:35.690 Michelle @ ProWritingAid: Texas. 5 00:00:36.520 --> 00:00:41.400 Michelle @ ProWritingAid: the UK. New Jersey, Missouri, Florida, Pennsylvania. 6 00:00:42.330 --> 00:00:45.130 Michelle @ ProWritingAid: coming in quickly. Now, Hi, everyone 7 00:00:45.910 --> 00:00:48.490 Michelle @ ProWritingAid: it's so nice to see all of you here. 8 00:00:49.970 --> 00:00:51.330 Michelle @ ProWritingAid: Melbourne. 9 00:00:51.430 --> 00:00:58.730 Michelle @ ProWritingAid: Germany, Barbados. We love seeing a nice international audience. There's so many of you coming in. This is great. 10 00:00:58.830 --> 00:01:02.750 Michelle @ ProWritingAid: I'm going to drop some links into the chat for you for today. 11 00:01:07.250 --> 00:01:09.170 Michelle @ ProWritingAid: and I will drop those 12 00:01:09.380 --> 00:01:11.929 Michelle @ ProWritingAid: periodically throughout the session as well. 13 00:01:11.990 --> 00:01:13.590 Michelle @ ProWritingAid: So don't worry if 14 00:01:13.730 --> 00:01:15.509 Michelle @ ProWritingAid: you missed them at first. 15 00:01:15.849 --> 00:01:28.109 Michelle @ ProWritingAid: Hello! I am Michelle, with pro rating age, so happy to welcome you to our first session of fantasy writers. Week we just have a couple of housekeeping notes to go over before we begin with our very first speaker 16 00:01:29.100 --> 00:01:58.970 Michelle @ ProWritingAid: so replays for this week for Monday through Thursday sessions are available for everyone on the hub as soon as they're done processing by zoom. 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As you can see, the chat moves very quickly. You can find that button in the center of your zoom screen. If you'd like to chat with other viewers, please feel free to use the chat. You'll just want to make sure you select everyone on the dropdown menu, otherwise your messages will just come to the host, and panelists 22 00:03:32.370 --> 00:03:41.819 Michelle @ ProWritingAid: links to your offers from priding aid, and our speakers will be available on the Fantasy Hub. And with that I believe we are ready to begin. 23 00:03:42.740 --> 00:04:07.119 Michelle @ ProWritingAid: Today we are joined by Sue Campbell. Sue has helped hundreds of writers from Newbies to bestsellers, transform their inhibitive mindset around marketing and realize their full potential as authors. Her clients have exponentially increased their email lists and book sales, landed articles and prestigious publications, such as the New York Times and done guest spots on popular podcasts and more welcome, Sue, we're so happy to have you back. 24 00:04:08.060 --> 00:04:17.760 Sue Campbell: Thank you so much. I'm so excited to be here. Yay, let me start sharing my screen. We've got a lot of material to get through. 25 00:04:17.970 --> 00:04:21.339 Sue Campbell: and I am very excited to get going. 26 00:04:22.200 --> 00:04:23.569 Sue Campbell: Here we go. 27 00:04:24.880 --> 00:04:29.069 Sue Campbell: It's great to see people from all over the world. 28 00:04:32.230 --> 00:04:33.799 Sue Campbell: We go here. We. 29 00:04:36.380 --> 00:04:43.429 Sue Campbell: So let's talk about marketing your fantasy novel. I'll skip the intro because Michelle did it for me. 30 00:04:44.316 --> 00:04:46.450 Sue Campbell: Tell me in the chat. 31 00:04:47.380 --> 00:04:50.700 Sue Campbell: what is your biggest marketing challenge? 32 00:04:51.230 --> 00:05:15.839 Sue Campbell: For most people. I find that marketing is not their favorite part of being an author. So I'm here today to sort of help you figure out, what's gonna work? How do I get started? How do I not hate it? So I'll actually do it. And my book can have some breach. But if you tell me what your biggest challenges I can sort of tailor this as I go along. If there's a a theme we can follow here. 33 00:05:16.090 --> 00:05:23.240 Sue Campbell: So we say, getting seen coming up with content, getting an audience reaching an audience. 34 00:05:23.280 --> 00:05:26.580 Sue Campbell: Money startup costs social media. 35 00:05:27.094 --> 00:05:37.624 Sue Campbell: Tony's is everything Dax says, biggest marketing challenges being an introvert. They're totally ways to be an introvert and market. So I've got you. 36 00:05:38.573 --> 00:05:44.869 Sue Campbell: Jamie says, feeling too salesy. Yep, we will talk about that for sure, reaching an audience. 37 00:05:45.350 --> 00:06:10.839 Sue Campbell: all of it showing up online where to start. Right? You can see you're in good company. There are already some common threads that go through this list. So first thing to notice is this is very normal to have questions, hesitations, ambivalence around marketing. Yeah. So I'm this is a great chat. It's really hopping here, getting people to care, identifying the target. Reader. Tech 38 00:06:11.400 --> 00:06:22.230 Sue Campbell: connecting to a community. These are fantastic. Okay, well, let's go ahead and jump in so we can get through as much of this as possible, and I want to leave a nice chunk of time for the Q. And a session. So 39 00:06:22.430 --> 00:06:41.889 Sue Campbell: most of the writers I talked to and I have literally talked to thousands and thousands of writers at this point is you wanna write. You don't necessarily want to market. There are a few weirdos like me who get excited about the marketing piece. You don't know where to start marketing is confusing. It's overwhelming. It seems expensive. We saw those things in the chat. 40 00:06:42.310 --> 00:07:07.329 Sue Campbell: What you want is some clarity around what is actually going to give you the best results for your efforts, because you're not going to spend all of your time marketing. Nor do I want you to. Nor do you need to. So let's look at what's gonna get you the best results for your effort. So you're gonna learn today. 4 things, number one. Why, marketing your book, using like a slap dash playbook of things that you read on the Internet from various articles 41 00:07:07.330 --> 00:07:35.630 Sue Campbell: is likely to fail. There is good information on the Internet. As we all know, there's also good and bad information on the Internet. But we need a way to fundamentally organize it through a strategy rather than kind of piecing it together through a lot of different sources. We'll talk about a better definition of marketing. Those of us who are real squeamish about appearing to salesy. We're gonna give you a better definition. So you don't even have to think about it as marketing 42 00:07:36.570 --> 00:07:56.369 Sue Campbell: goal number 3, and there'll be a quiz on this one, your number one book, marketing goal. Figure out what that is. And then number 4, the foundational 4 part strategy that's actually gonna grow your audience. So this is the underlying strategy that we can populate with a bunch of tactics that work for us and that we like the best. 43 00:07:56.530 --> 00:08:00.760 Sue Campbell: But we do need to have that underlying strategy about what we're doing. 44 00:08:01.640 --> 00:08:19.229 Sue Campbell: So when you Google book marketing, which I do periodically cause it's fun and interesting for me as a professional is, you will find the the first results if you scroll for quite a long while used to be Google's and pages. Now you just scroll 45 00:08:19.840 --> 00:08:30.479 Sue Campbell: number one you have to write. They'll say things like you have to write a great book. You have to have a great cover and a great book description, and you have to present yourself professionally. 46 00:08:30.670 --> 00:08:41.569 Sue Campbell: All of you could write an article about that right now, I'm pretty sure. Right. This is stuff every author already knows. And what I want you to notice about this list is that you? 47 00:08:42.000 --> 00:08:53.220 Sue Campbell: These are things about the product. These are things about making a good product, not actually reaching people who might want to buy the product right? None of these things actually bring people to your book. 48 00:08:54.280 --> 00:09:20.090 Sue Campbell: So that is one of the reasons why the Internet is like only partially your friend. When it comes to this, you have to arm yourself with that strategy. So let's go ahead and dive in to some other problems with, you know, phishing for tactics from various articles. So one of the big problems with a lot of online marketing advice is that it is just tactics. It's not strategy. It's not telling you like the underlying method to the madness. 49 00:09:20.090 --> 00:09:31.319 Sue Campbell: A lot of the articles, of course, are very bite, sized, and clickbait, like 100 things you can do to market your book in under 10 min, which is great, because we all all want to do it in like little bursts. 50 00:09:31.350 --> 00:09:57.559 Sue Campbell: But how do we know which of those things is actually gonna move the needle, and how much of it is just like a waste of time or feeling like we're doing something, even though it's not gonna accomplish what we want to accomplish. A lot of it doesn't focus on the return on investment, either of your time or your money, and a lot of it is really a one size fits all mentality, like everybody, should be on Tiktok. Everybody should be on Twitter, or whatever the platform of the moment is. 51 00:09:59.820 --> 00:10:08.120 Sue Campbell: And remember, if you have questions put it in the Q. And a. I just happened to glance at the chat for a half a second, and I saw a question in there. So put those in the Q. And A for later 52 00:10:09.196 --> 00:10:14.529 Sue Campbell: number, second lesson, a better definition of marketing. 53 00:10:14.600 --> 00:10:17.280 Sue Campbell: So tell me in the chat 54 00:10:18.010 --> 00:10:30.519 Sue Campbell: if you didn't have to. Alright, let me phase, let me phrase this as a yes or no question, so it's easier in the chat. How many of you are excited. Are you excited about marketing? Give me a yes or a no in the chat. 55 00:10:31.950 --> 00:10:34.790 Sue Campbell: Yeah, I'm seeing mostly 56 00:10:34.890 --> 00:10:37.110 Sue Campbell: knows hell knows. 57 00:10:37.430 --> 00:10:43.510 Sue Campbell: No. Okay. I see some people who are a little bit somewhat okay. Yes, yes, actually wonderful 58 00:10:44.030 --> 00:10:52.059 Sue Campbell: on the fence. All right. So what I want you to notice people who said, no is that there are people who said yes. 59 00:10:52.640 --> 00:10:59.839 Sue Campbell: so marketing itself is neither good nor bad, because different people can have different feelings about it. 60 00:11:00.120 --> 00:11:09.509 Sue Campbell: Right? So the what the thoughts that you're bringing the story that you're telling yourself I'm big on this. I'm writing a book about it. The story that you're telling yourself about marketing 61 00:11:09.760 --> 00:11:21.630 Sue Campbell: is going to drive, how you feel about it, and then what action you will take about it. So one of the biggest gifts that I can give you is to give you a better definition of marketing that will help you think about it differently. 62 00:11:21.850 --> 00:11:46.990 Sue Campbell: so that you can actually move into action, because I wish I didn't even have to use the word marketing. But you know, if I just go in around inventing words in this case it's not a fantasy novel where I can just invent a word. And everyone's gonna know what I'm talking about, because I can world build right. But I want you to think about when you call it marketing. I think I want you to think what you're actually doing is you're building long, lasting connections with readers 63 00:11:47.680 --> 00:11:54.830 Sue Campbell: on your terms. So if you're you're an introvert, you can build that long, lasting connection with them on your terms. 64 00:11:55.410 --> 00:12:04.330 Sue Campbell: So when we're building long, lasting connections with people. Readers who are usually super cool people. Readers and writers are like my favorite people 65 00:12:04.430 --> 00:12:05.570 Sue Campbell: on Earth. 66 00:12:05.590 --> 00:12:11.560 Sue Campbell: When I think about oh, I'm actually building a meaningful connection with somebody based on common interest 67 00:12:11.850 --> 00:12:21.610 Sue Campbell: that feels much better to me than marketing and thinking of the spam phone calls and the used car salespeople. So tell me, does that help 68 00:12:21.630 --> 00:12:27.580 Sue Campbell: in the chat? Yes or no? Do you like that definition of marketing better than whatever's been in your head? 69 00:12:28.030 --> 00:12:28.840 Sue Campbell: Okay. 70 00:12:29.190 --> 00:12:30.250 Sue Campbell: yay 71 00:12:30.710 --> 00:12:31.980 Sue Campbell: fantastic. 72 00:12:32.450 --> 00:12:34.000 Sue Campbell: So let's keep going. 73 00:12:34.090 --> 00:12:48.939 Sue Campbell: This next one is really important. There's going to be a quiz at the end. So your number one bookmarking goal. But I'm actually going to give it to you in the context of the book marketing strategy I'm going to talk about. But it gets its own bullet, because I really want that to be a takeaway for you. 74 00:12:49.918 --> 00:12:54.369 Sue Campbell: So I'm gonna give it to you in the context of the 4 part bookmarking strategy. 75 00:12:54.460 --> 00:12:57.140 Sue Campbell: Alright. So this is, gonna be the bulk of the presentation. 76 00:12:57.820 --> 00:13:11.310 Sue Campbell: This may be where you want to take notes. You'll have slides in the hub, so don't worry too much. There's going to be a replay for a little while. So this might be something that you want to watch once or twice, especially if you're like getting ready to really move into marketing phase. 77 00:13:11.660 --> 00:13:14.370 Sue Campbell: So it's called the connection system. 78 00:13:14.390 --> 00:13:32.639 Sue Campbell: And it's basically if you've ever heard of content marketing, it's a content marketing system. But it's specifically for authors. So it's got 4 pieces. I'm gonna walk you through each of the 4 pieces. The first one is permission. If you don't know what that means yet. That's fine. Gonna talk about it. In a second the second one is content. 79 00:13:32.970 --> 00:13:40.480 Sue Campbell: The third one is outreach, and the fourth one is selling. So these are the the pillars of the marketing system. 80 00:13:41.200 --> 00:13:46.559 Sue Campbell: and then you can, of course, unpack each of them a little bit. But let's go ahead and start defining them for you. 81 00:13:46.880 --> 00:13:56.109 Sue Campbell: So permission is inherently a non-slimy form of marketing, because you are asking people for permission 82 00:13:56.610 --> 00:14:05.390 Sue Campbell: to give them more information, contact them, reach out to them, and they are going to allow you into their digital space or their physical space. 83 00:14:05.700 --> 00:14:12.009 Sue Campbell: And it lets you get people's attention and actually drive action to build that relationship 84 00:14:12.280 --> 00:14:19.432 Sue Campbell: rather than well, I'll talk a little bit in in a little bit about what kind of 85 00:14:20.730 --> 00:14:26.189 Sue Campbell: what kind of permission we want to talk about. So social media is definitely a form of permission. 86 00:14:26.630 --> 00:14:33.400 Sue Campbell: So if you follow me on Instagram, you're giving me permission to show up in your social media feed 87 00:14:34.120 --> 00:14:35.719 Sue Campbell: the problem with. 88 00:14:36.040 --> 00:14:57.539 Sue Campbell: And we have lots of data to support this. The problem with social media for authors is, it doesn't actually sell books very well at all. I think it's this is even more true than when I started doing this work back in 2,018, I moved from being a copywriter and content marketer to specifically marketing books and authors. Because I'm a total bookworm 89 00:14:57.800 --> 00:14:59.510 Sue Campbell: and an author myself. 90 00:14:59.950 --> 00:15:10.559 Sue Campbell: and what we see is that the algorithms will tell you. You have X number of followers, let's say, 10,000 followers. But when you actually put up a post. 91 00:15:10.800 --> 00:15:15.749 Sue Campbell: Very few of your followers actually see that post. 92 00:15:15.940 --> 00:15:40.119 Sue Campbell: then, of the post of the, you know, followers who actually see that post. An even smaller number of them will actually interact with it in a meaningful way. And of course, an infinitesimally small amount compared to the whole of your follower account, is going to actually click through to the book, and then an even smaller number is going to buy the book. Now the current exception is Tiktok. Tiktok can sell some books 93 00:15:40.580 --> 00:15:50.590 Sue Campbell: right. The big movers and Shakers on Tiktok, on the hashtag book talk can absolutely sell some books, and this has been a phenomenon that's lasted a couple of years now. 94 00:15:51.480 --> 00:16:08.630 Sue Campbell: and there are a lot of reasons for that. So the current exception is, Tiktok can sell books, but of course you have to be good in that particular method. So you have to be willing to create videos. You don't, you know, have to do dancing videos. There are lots of different kinds of videos that you can make on Tiktok. 95 00:16:08.630 --> 00:16:26.839 Sue Campbell: But what I want to tell you is that's probably not going to last forever, either right. Whether or not Tiktok even gets banned in the United States is another story. But even if everything stays status quo in terms of access, it probably won't be forever that Tiktok's always going to be able to sell books 96 00:16:26.840 --> 00:16:50.549 Sue Campbell: right? When do you market on social media? You're really beholden to what is happening with those platforms that you have no control over. So problems with social, it's really hard to get readers to take buying actions. Very small percentage of any of your followers are going to see it. It's very easy to not show up at all or get totally buried right? We're in scroll mode when we're on social media. 97 00:16:51.250 --> 00:17:00.020 Sue Campbell: Stopping to interact with something is actually fairly rare unless the content is very. If you're really good at virality and really catching people's attention. 98 00:17:00.060 --> 00:17:07.269 Sue Campbell: And then, of course, those platforms can change the rules, the algorithms, they can crash without warning all of those things. 99 00:17:07.460 --> 00:17:17.710 Sue Campbell: So your number one bookmarking goal is to build your own email list of subscribers. 100 00:17:18.220 --> 00:17:36.149 Sue Campbell: Alright. So email list advantages. Let's say that you didn't have an email list. And through writing a really good book and a lot of little hits of good luck. You had a breakout hit for your first book. 101 00:17:36.510 --> 00:17:39.264 Sue Campbell: so you had a bunch of people buying it. 102 00:17:40.094 --> 00:17:48.939 Sue Campbell: you even had a social media following. But now the algorithms have changed again. So you can't really reach any of your social following without spending money on ads 103 00:17:49.010 --> 00:17:55.250 Sue Campbell: when you release your second book. Nobody who liked your first book knows that 104 00:17:55.870 --> 00:18:05.020 Sue Campbell: right? So when we build an email list, if we are really focused on converting readers to email as subscribers or just strangers off the street to email as subscribers. 105 00:18:05.040 --> 00:18:18.459 Sue Campbell: We have a way to reach them when we have a new book out. You don't have to keep hustling for new readers. For each book you're keeping in touch. You're keeping that long, lasting connection with your core. Reader. 106 00:18:18.950 --> 00:18:35.990 Sue Campbell: you own the list. It can't be taken from you unless, of course, you are violating the law. And then your email service provider can take it from you. And of course people can unsubscribe. We want them to be able to do that. If someone doesn't want to be on your list. They're not going to buy your book. So that's fine. They can leave your list. That's not a problem. 107 00:18:36.290 --> 00:19:05.380 Sue Campbell: You control the messaging right? It's your platform. You can say what you want, and it is a much quieter, more intimate space where you can actually drive action. So open rates for emails like blow social media views and engagements out of the water. Click rates for emails. I mean, it is not even close. Your engagement rate for social media is like, if you get up to one. That's fantastic. Your open rate for emails is going to be about 30, 108 00:19:06.030 --> 00:19:07.860 Sue Campbell: right? So under 1% 109 00:19:08.010 --> 00:19:25.979 Sue Campbell: or 30 in that range. Which one do we want? Right? Pretty pretty easy game. So your number one goal is to build your email list. Now, you cannot do this in a spreadsheet. You can't do this out of your normal Google account, or whatever you use. You need to have an email service provider. 110 00:19:26.268 --> 00:19:51.699 Sue Campbell: You also need to have a website, or at least a landing page to send. Like, if someone finds you on the Internet, you send them to a landing page where they can sign up for your newsletter. Right? You click on the the link to what I'm giving you today at the end of this webinar. That's a landing page where you're gonna enter your email address. And then you are signing up for my email list. So you need a landing page, an email service provider 111 00:19:52.938 --> 00:20:19.410 Sue Campbell: so that little sign up form comes from the email service provider. You want to give something in exchange, right? An email address is very valuable. So we wanted this to be a a value exchange. We don't want to just be take, take taking. So you're going to give them some sort of a sign up incentive. They're called, reader magnets lead magnets right? There's a bunch of different names for them. So there's some yucky names like bribe to subscribe gross 112 00:20:19.836 --> 00:20:35.159 Sue Campbell: but you get the general idea. And then you need a little welcome email, or even a welcome sequence, to welcome people onto your list and try to develop that relationship again. Right? So you wanna build that know? Like and trust 113 00:20:35.220 --> 00:20:37.350 Sue Campbell: with your audience. Okay. 114 00:20:38.540 --> 00:21:01.539 Sue Campbell: yes. Nicole says, I'm a content marketing strategist for my day job in this webinar is warming my heart. Don't sleep on your email list. Yes, exactly. Exactly. You're gonna have this. All the skill set. You need to do this. Well, Nicole, because it's the same thing. Okay? So the second piece first piece was email list permission, right? That's the first piece of the system permissions. Just another word for email list in our case. 115 00:21:02.275 --> 00:21:07.140 Sue Campbell: Content, are the materials that you are putting out into the world 116 00:21:07.180 --> 00:21:18.838 Sue Campbell: to help people decide if they like you, if it's a good fit. If they wanna keep building that relationship if they want to hear more. This is usually our favorite part as authors. Because we're like, yeah, I can write some stuff 117 00:21:19.110 --> 00:21:39.229 Sue Campbell: right? I'm happy. That's my comfort zone. I'll spend 90% of my time there, you can't do that. I'll tell you more about that in a minute and kind of what the distribution activity should be, but content. We usually inherently understand. So there are a lot of things you can do in terms of content. A blog post and newsletter social media. The things you post on social are actually content. 118 00:21:40.020 --> 00:22:03.530 Sue Campbell: If you're on a podcast all the words that are coming out of your mouth are content. You can write blogs or articles for other people's websites. You can do speeches or readings. You can write for other little outlets or places like medium if you're in, you know, nonfiction land which we're talking about fantasy novels. Today, you can do things like workbooks, videos, white papers, case studies, that kind of thing. Okay. 119 00:22:04.720 --> 00:22:28.909 Sue Campbell: alright. So the next thing that you need is a if we're talking about core pieces of content, the must halves. You need a welcome email at the bare minimum. One welcome email for email subscribers. I prefer you have 2 to 3 again, so you can kind of warm them up and let them know what they're getting into, because if they don't want to be on your list. Now's the time to get them off nice than early. 120 00:22:29.040 --> 00:22:40.149 Sue Campbell: and if you do want them on your list, you want to build that relationship. So they remember who you are when you when they when you land in their email box 2 weeks from now, they're not like what the heck is this, and they just, you know, unsubscribe. 121 00:22:40.710 --> 00:22:45.629 Sue Campbell: You also want to do a regular newsletter for subscribers. 122 00:22:46.190 --> 00:22:58.809 Sue Campbell: So regular newsletter is important. I know a lot of you because we don't want to be sleazy, icky salespeople we're like, no, no, no, I'm only going to email them when it's really important. I'm only going to email them when I have a new book out 123 00:22:58.990 --> 00:23:09.029 Sue Campbell: right which your intentions are good. But the way that can be interpreted on the other side is like my friend, who only calls me when he's moving, and needs to borrow my truck 124 00:23:09.240 --> 00:23:13.410 Sue Campbell: right. He only calls me when it serves him to call me. 125 00:23:13.850 --> 00:23:27.659 Sue Campbell: And if you are only sending out a newsletter when you want people to buy your book, that's the same thing, right? We want to be building that relationship and that reciprocity throughout the entire relationship with your reader on that email list. 126 00:23:28.880 --> 00:23:50.810 Sue Campbell: And then, finally, we want content to use with influencers, and I'll tell you about more about that in a second. What an influencer is in the context that I'm talking about it. But out in the world. Right? If we have a very small audience when we're first starting, we don't want to spend a ton of time creating content for the 37 people on our email list. Those people are important. We want to spoil the heck out of them. 127 00:23:50.840 --> 00:23:58.100 Sue Campbell: But if we're using a ton of time to create content. We want to get as many eyeballs as we possibly can. Okay. 128 00:23:59.120 --> 00:24:13.830 Sue Campbell: alright. So 2 pieces. So far, we've got permission. That's your email list. We have content. This is the magic piece where without it, we're gonna be really frustrated with our progress. We're just not gonna see progress. 129 00:24:13.920 --> 00:24:30.029 Sue Campbell: So outreach is moving people from not knowing that you exist to now, knowing that you exist, this is what makes your audience grow bigger and bigger and bigger and bigger. Right? This is the magic ingredients. 130 00:24:30.750 --> 00:24:39.130 Sue Campbell: So an influencer is often the way that we find our way to those other audiences. So it's not just 131 00:24:39.180 --> 00:24:53.860 Sue Campbell: a lovely young woman like this, who's maybe doing makeup tutorials on Instagram, even though we're used to thinking of an influencer as something like that. An influencer is anyone who can get other people to buy your book and become your fan. 132 00:24:54.530 --> 00:25:02.729 Sue Campbell: So types of influencers these could be other authors in your genre. These could be bloggers and book reviewers, book talkers, 133 00:25:04.084 --> 00:25:06.420 Sue Campbell: instagrammers, books to grammars. 134 00:25:06.520 --> 00:25:08.520 Sue Campbell: Podcasters. 135 00:25:08.970 --> 00:25:30.179 Sue Campbell: event bookers, journalists, librarians, are wonderful influencers. Other people with large social media followings like really large social media followings. Great, they've already built the audience. And because there's 40 million people, they're actually gonna get some reach. Great, that's an influencer. And then other people who have big email lists. Okay. 136 00:25:30.910 --> 00:25:37.450 Sue Campbell: that's not an exhaustive list. You may have a different kind of influencer based on your specific kind of book. 137 00:25:38.300 --> 00:25:45.349 Sue Campbell: So when we talk about outreach, it sounds it is one part of a 4 part system, but it also unpacks. 138 00:25:45.530 --> 00:26:12.420 Sue Campbell: So there are 7 different steps that I define to the outreach process. So the first one is to get your mind right. My, I am huge on mindset. I'm also a life coach. If I wasn't. I could hand someone a list of everything they need to do for marketing. And if they don't want to, because of the way they're thinking about marketing. They're not going to do it. So then I'm just speaking into the wins, right? So we've got to get focused on our mindset 139 00:26:12.450 --> 00:26:14.560 Sue Campbell: really quick hit on this. 140 00:26:15.560 --> 00:26:19.379 Sue Campbell: you're going to get rejected, and you're going to get ignored. 141 00:26:19.770 --> 00:26:25.820 Sue Campbell: That is just part of the cost that we pay to actually reach the people who want to be reached 142 00:26:25.920 --> 00:26:31.799 Sue Campbell: right? So we don't need to make it mean anything about our book. We don't need to make it mean anything about us. 143 00:26:32.160 --> 00:26:48.420 Sue Campbell: Influencers have a lot of reasons to say no, that have nothing to do with whether or not our work is any good, so give them the benefit of the doubt that they know their audience better than than you do. They know what's going on in their lives which may preclude helping you out right. 144 00:26:48.420 --> 00:27:03.179 Sue Campbell: You don't need to make it mean anything about you, and you've got to be willing to be uncomfortable and willing to put yourself out there and not expect it to feel great every time. It's just not going to. Everything you want for your author career is on the other side of discomfort 145 00:27:04.360 --> 00:27:05.240 Sue Campbell: period. 146 00:27:06.170 --> 00:27:06.980 Sue Campbell: Okay. 147 00:27:07.400 --> 00:27:16.050 Sue Campbell: so that's step one. But I also call it step 2.1 3.1 4.1 5.1 right, because it will keep coming back up for us. It's just the way it works. 148 00:27:16.140 --> 00:27:22.199 Sue Campbell: The second piece is setting goals. So when I talk about this, I'm talking about like, okay. 149 00:27:22.290 --> 00:27:40.130 Sue Campbell: I want to pitch, you know, 40 podcasts in the next 3 months, right? Setting a goal in terms of what your outputs going to be rather than oh, I went to Sue's webinar. And I, you know, pitched one podcast and I didn't hear back. So this doesn't work. She's full of it. 150 00:27:40.320 --> 00:27:48.029 Sue Campbell: right? We wanna actually give it enough of a chance. If we're gonna plant a garden, we don't just go out and plant one broccoli seed. 151 00:27:48.250 --> 00:27:58.279 Sue Campbell: We've got to be able to scatter enough seeds, because we know they're not all gonna germinate. So we have to be willing to set benchmarks for ourselves of how much outreach we're going to do 152 00:27:58.590 --> 00:28:01.309 Sue Campbell: so that it has a chance to come to fruition. 153 00:28:01.380 --> 00:28:22.169 Sue Campbell: The next piece is all about your ideal, reader. You've got to figure out who your ideal reader is, so that you can then find them out in the world. So, knowing, I have a really clear, then this is actually what my little free thing for you is, if you send it for my newsletter, as I'll send you another pre recorded webinar about figuring out who your ideal reader is 154 00:28:22.280 --> 00:28:29.089 Sue Campbell: very, very important step to any of the, you know principles that we're talking about today. You need to know who you're going to try to reach. 155 00:28:29.240 --> 00:28:38.100 Sue Campbell: Once you do that, you can move on to step 4. Because now we can research, we know who we're looking for. So we can do that research to figure out who are the influencers in our space. 156 00:28:38.170 --> 00:29:07.890 Sue Campbell: and then we can start cultivating relationships with them. This is where social media actually comes in handy, because you do have a better chance of reaching these people, and you know, following them for a while, liking their stuff, sharing their stuff, commenting right? Developing that reciprocity in that relationship with those influencers. You can write cold pitches without Step 5, and have them work. We do it all the time, but it does work better if you. That is not the first time the influencer has heard from you. 157 00:29:09.090 --> 00:29:37.860 Sue Campbell: and then step 6 is really, you know, this is probably what most people think about is just the actual making the ask, like pitching to get on a podcast but it's way down the list right. But there's other stuff that we have to do first. So then, we're writing a pitch, hey? Can I be on your podcast hey, can I write a guest article, hey? Will you review my book? Whatever the ask is, we wanna make it sure it's a win win, right? It's gotta be a win for that influencer, and that what we're doing is gonna help them serve their audience. That's their whole job is to serve an audience. 158 00:29:37.860 --> 00:29:52.849 Sue Campbell: So how are we gonna help them do that. Why is it a good fit? We have to make the case for that in our pitch, so it should not just be like a press release. Blast that just doesn't work and then step 7 is delivery. So when someone says, Yes. 159 00:29:52.880 --> 00:29:54.849 Sue Campbell: then we say 160 00:29:54.940 --> 00:30:06.689 Sue Campbell: we're going to show up, we're going to give it our all. We're going to be on time. We're going to have great content. We're going to do all the things to be delightful to work with. So maybe they want to work with us again for our next book, or when the paperback comes out 161 00:30:06.770 --> 00:30:12.780 Sue Campbell: and they want to, you know, tell their other influencer friends that we would be a good guest. Okay. 162 00:30:13.420 --> 00:30:20.289 Sue Campbell: 7 steps to outreach. And it's so so important. Another thing you realize is that ads are outreach, too. 163 00:30:20.420 --> 00:30:33.560 Sue Campbell: if we're just trying to move people from not knowing we exist to now, knowing we exist as a way to try to build that relationship as are basically a paid form of outreach. So if you have more budget than time. 164 00:30:34.428 --> 00:30:52.589 Sue Campbell: that could be a great strategy for you, or a piece of your overall strategy. That's what I like to use it as I like a mix of organic outreach and paid outreach. And again, your budget can be actually really small. You get to set your budget on a lot of these platforms so you can 165 00:30:52.590 --> 00:31:08.323 Sue Campbell: test, figure out what works best, and then budget your ad appropriately. There is a learning curve there's testing required. But this is really nice to have running in the background when you have less time, right seasons in your life when things are busier, so you can't do as much organic outreach 166 00:31:09.032 --> 00:31:22.059 Sue Campbell: and again, this is none of this has to be a full time job right? There's a learning curve that's going to take more. And you're going to be like, Oh, my God, this is so much work! But as soon as you've learned it, the maintenance is so much easier and takes less time. Okay. 167 00:31:23.580 --> 00:31:29.770 Sue Campbell: so we've got 3 pieces so far, permission content outreach. And now we're at 168 00:31:29.960 --> 00:31:32.980 Sue Campbell: selling. So this is offering 169 00:31:33.140 --> 00:31:39.600 Sue Campbell: your book to the right people. So tell me in the chat how many of you love selling? 170 00:31:40.900 --> 00:31:43.079 Sue Campbell: You love selling? Yes or no. 171 00:31:43.810 --> 00:31:49.770 Sue Campbell: someone said the first one was, I do, and then Nope, Nope, no, no, no, no, boo, not there yet. 172 00:31:50.180 --> 00:31:52.570 Sue Campbell: Couple of yeses. 173 00:31:54.410 --> 00:32:07.899 Sue Campbell: Someone says it's the worst again. So I want you to notice. Selling can't be inherently good or bad, because we have a lot of people in the chat who aren't agreeing on it. We've got some yeses, some no's some people who are lukewarm. 174 00:32:08.830 --> 00:32:17.659 Sue Campbell: So let me tell you how I think about selling, because it might be helpful for you again. This is like the story that you're telling yourself about what you're doing. 175 00:32:18.436 --> 00:32:21.909 Sue Campbell: This first bullet I straight up stole from Buddhism. 176 00:32:21.920 --> 00:32:25.780 Sue Campbell: and it is virtuous. Actions have virtuous results. 177 00:32:26.210 --> 00:32:39.529 Sue Campbell: So when you are writing a book because you are trying to fulfill your own creativity and write about a theme that is important to you, even if only as entertainment value. That is a virtuous act. 178 00:32:39.620 --> 00:32:49.549 Sue Campbell: And when you try to find that match of someone else who's going to appreciate, enjoy, love, be moved by that story. That is a virtuous act. 179 00:32:50.120 --> 00:33:07.959 Sue Campbell: If you pump out a crappy book and you don't care about the readers experience, and you don't care if they ever even read it, and you just want to make as much money as possible, which let's face it. You would probably not be an author. In that case you'd be doing something else. But if that was the space you were doing it from, that's not a virtuous act. 180 00:33:07.960 --> 00:33:24.470 Sue Campbell: Someone's gonna feel icky. It might even not have as good results as you want, at least over the long term. Obviously, okay. So writing books. Making art is a virtuous act. You're adding value to the world. Now, you just have to find the value match of the person who wants that 181 00:33:24.920 --> 00:33:29.280 Sue Campbell: right. We want to share our gifts with the people who really want to accept them. 182 00:33:30.030 --> 00:33:33.640 Sue Campbell: So you can. You know you could make a case 183 00:33:33.960 --> 00:33:50.819 Sue Campbell: that it's actually not virtuous. It's the opposite to withhold something from the world that could do some good for someone out there. Right? We gotta at least step up and do our part of getting it out into the world and trying to get it into the right hands. 184 00:33:50.890 --> 00:33:54.359 Sue Campbell: So that's how I approach thinking about selling. 185 00:33:54.890 --> 00:34:03.970 Sue Campbell: There's a lot more to say on all these topics, but we've only got so much time, and I want to leave time for Q. And A. So let's talk about, how do you actually put this all together? 186 00:34:07.690 --> 00:34:12.470 Sue Campbell: Okay, so the connection system we learned is your email list. 187 00:34:12.989 --> 00:34:17.430 Sue Campbell: the content that you put out into the world to give people a taste of who you are. 188 00:34:17.440 --> 00:34:32.130 Sue Campbell: You're gonna go out into the world using outreach, invite people back to your email list and then be offering them your book, because, you know, it's a value match. That is not the only thing you're gonna be putting out in newsletters. By the way, right? You're gonna give them some kind of content that they would love 189 00:34:32.484 --> 00:34:37.839 Sue Campbell: but you're also gonna have a call to action to buy one of your books. Okay? 190 00:34:38.190 --> 00:34:39.999 Sue Campbell: So here's an example. 191 00:34:40.250 --> 00:34:48.100 Sue Campbell: let's say, you befriend and influencer in your space with a popular podcast. Right. So you could do this on social. This is. 192 00:34:48.159 --> 00:34:54.689 Sue Campbell: I'm going to give you 2 examples. But oh, my gosh! You will see how you can spin this out so so many different ways. 193 00:34:54.760 --> 00:35:11.439 Sue Campbell: So you're gonna be friend and influencer, who's got a podcast that's outreach because that influencer didn't know you who you were before. And now they know who you are. So you're reaching out to that influencer. And then you're pitching that influencer to be on their podcast in a way that's really a win win 194 00:35:11.610 --> 00:35:21.440 Sue Campbell: right. So the that is content because you're going to have to say words when you're on the podcast and it's outreach, because that'll be an audience of people who didn't know about you before. 195 00:35:21.890 --> 00:35:32.530 Sue Campbell: Then, at the end of the podcast you're going to let listeners know where they can learn more about you and have that special web page set up for them to sign up for your email list and get that signed up incentive. 196 00:35:33.082 --> 00:35:37.210 Sue Campbell: So that's permission building that email list number one goal. 197 00:35:37.960 --> 00:35:48.510 Sue Campbell: And then the new subscriber is going to get a welcome email or a series of welcome emails. And that has content related to your work. So anytime you send out a newsletter. That's what we call the the 198 00:35:48.670 --> 00:35:53.780 Sue Campbell: the email that you send out to your subscribers. We call it a newsletter that's content. 199 00:35:53.870 --> 00:35:59.459 Sue Campbell: And we want that to be delightful, and that they're super excited about opening your emails. 200 00:35:59.570 --> 00:36:12.750 Sue Campbell: And then every newsletter will have a blurb about your book and a link to buy it again. That's not all that's in there. We want to be building that relationship. So far we're ever doing is pumping out sales requests. That's not going to work. Very well. Okay. 201 00:36:15.160 --> 00:36:27.629 Sue Campbell: Second example. So this one's great with the influencer, because you don't need anybody to agree to anything to do this. So you can review a book from a well-known author 202 00:36:27.670 --> 00:36:33.859 Sue Campbell: on your podcast on your website, even on social, you can review a book. 203 00:36:34.080 --> 00:36:39.960 Sue Campbell: and you don't need the author to say, Hey, that's fine. You can do that right. You can just do it. 204 00:36:40.110 --> 00:36:44.940 Sue Campbell: And then social media is helpful here because you are going to promote the post. 205 00:36:45.060 --> 00:36:57.820 Sue Campbell: And again, we're not trying to sell books using social. We're trying to make connections. I don't know, like, you know social connections using social media. But when you tag that author on social the content of your post, that's content. 206 00:36:58.510 --> 00:37:26.650 Sue Campbell: then that author is going to share your link 9 times out of 10, if they're on actually actively using that site. And they see free publicity from someone who reviewed their book. That's outreach, because once that author shares it with their audience. Now, you have people who didn't know about you before. And then your podcast in this example is gonna end with a call to action to join your mailing list and get a sign up bonus, and that is called Permission. 207 00:37:27.220 --> 00:37:30.029 Sue Campbell: Right? We're going to get them back to the email list 208 00:37:30.050 --> 00:37:37.969 Sue Campbell: and then you have your newsletter goes out. It has a blurb to buy your book blurb and a link, and that is selling. 209 00:37:38.910 --> 00:37:50.889 Sue Campbell: So just 2 examples because we're pressed for time. But hopefully, tell me in the chat, give me a yes, if you can think of different ways to spin out this system. We just need all 4 components. 210 00:37:51.260 --> 00:37:59.269 Sue Campbell: And we need to be having influencers, you know, having audiences that are already built and getting in front of them. Okay, good. 211 00:38:00.120 --> 00:38:06.669 Sue Campbell: All right. People are really seeing lots of ways that they can spin this out fantastic. So let's recap. 212 00:38:07.980 --> 00:38:09.939 Sue Campbell: Here's what we talked about. 213 00:38:09.970 --> 00:38:32.410 Sue Campbell: Why, we can't just look at the top articles on Google to help us number one. We already know the basics of creating a great product. We know that that is important. But we need to have that underlying strategy to say, Okay, this tactic. Does this make sense for me given my overall strategy. Is this something I'm comfortable with? Is my ideal reader 214 00:38:32.490 --> 00:38:35.179 Sue Campbell: going to be touched by this particular tactic 215 00:38:35.340 --> 00:38:37.789 Sue Campbell: right? If your ideal reader 216 00:38:38.190 --> 00:38:45.369 Sue Campbell: is only going to be on Tiktok. And this is a Facebook strat, a tactic that's not going to work for you. 217 00:38:46.527 --> 00:38:56.189 Sue Campbell: A better definition of marketing that seemed really helpful from those of you who responded in the chat. We are talking about building connections on our terms. 218 00:38:56.280 --> 00:39:03.969 Sue Campbell: We're talking about building connections with readers. We're not talking about spamming people, shoving things in their faces that they are not interested in. 219 00:39:04.610 --> 00:39:09.860 Sue Campbell: Okay, here's the pop quiz. What's our number one book marketing goal. 220 00:39:15.110 --> 00:39:17.440 Sue Campbell: Yes, ding, ding, ding. 221 00:39:18.070 --> 00:39:19.570 Sue Campbell: build the email list. 222 00:39:20.230 --> 00:39:29.559 Sue Campbell: Wonderful. Wonderful. Okay. And then we talked about the 4 part marketing strategy. So that's permission. Content outreach selling 223 00:39:29.980 --> 00:39:31.670 Sue Campbell: rinse and repeat. 224 00:39:32.560 --> 00:39:49.929 Sue Campbell: So next step for you and Michelle. If you could drop the link in the chat again, you need to. In order to implement this strategy. You need to know who your ideal reader is, because, remember, like 80 to 90% of all the marketing time you have available should be spent on outreach. 225 00:39:49.960 --> 00:40:00.580 Sue Campbell: And in order to do outreach, you need to know who you are looking for. So knowing your ideal reader, even in the fantasy space. A lot of you may have very different ideal readers from each other. 226 00:40:01.012 --> 00:40:06.190 Sue Campbell: So it's really important for you to be clear about that. And my web webinar goes in detail. 227 00:40:07.110 --> 00:40:35.810 Sue Campbell: What kind of person are we talking about? Very specifically? Not broad strokes? 18 to 35 year old, male, or, you know, 45 to 65 year old. We're not talking about broad demographics. We want it to be like a character sketch of the person in your book. So please, if you are trying to implement the strategy, make sure that you're watching that reader, persona webinar. So you know how to really leverage it, because that's where it comes into play. Okay? 228 00:40:35.930 --> 00:40:40.209 Sue Campbell: Oh, my gosh, we're doing so good. We've got time for questions. 229 00:40:43.596 --> 00:40:45.930 Sue Campbell: So I am going to 230 00:40:46.720 --> 00:40:55.920 Sue Campbell: Penny. I see you have a hand raised, but we're not going to be bringing people on today. So if you want to put your question in the QA. Box, I will try to get to it for you. 231 00:40:57.127 --> 00:40:59.609 Sue Campbell: Alright, Christopher says. 232 00:41:00.193 --> 00:41:08.580 Sue Campbell: How to market like Brandon Sanderson. But I'm unknown. Okay? So Brandon Sanderson is a marketing genius 233 00:41:08.720 --> 00:41:17.780 Sue Campbell: right? And he has an email list. He has an audience who he can reach again and again and again, and it took him years to build that up 234 00:41:17.890 --> 00:41:41.129 Sue Campbell: right. But you can employ the exact same strategy and depending on how much time and effort you're able to put into it. You absolutely could get there. It's going to take a little bit of time. But think about that. It doesn't matter if you're known now. There was a time when Brandon Sanderson wasn't known he didn't come out of the womb with, you know, millions of followers. So think about 235 00:41:41.170 --> 00:41:44.830 Sue Campbell: all right. How do I implement this strategy 236 00:41:45.080 --> 00:41:53.920 Sue Campbell: for my particular reader and my particular books. In the same way you can use him as a model. 100. But the only way you're going to get known 237 00:41:53.980 --> 00:41:58.069 Sue Campbell: is to stop thinking I'm unknown, so I can't do it. 238 00:41:58.760 --> 00:42:16.560 Sue Campbell: Hear what I'm saying, cause if we reinforce that story of like. But I'm unknown. But I'm unknown. Then we're all we're focused on is that unknown, and we're not focused on actually getting ourselves out there. So I would just flip it and be like I'm gonna get known like Brandon Sanderson did. And then you actually do the work to get that in there. 239 00:42:19.760 --> 00:42:33.769 Sue Campbell: Anna says how important are vital is social media and a social media presence. We talked about that. So I'm going to give you the little caveat to. I don't care if you grow social media following. If you want a traditional publishing deal 240 00:42:34.020 --> 00:42:45.719 Sue Campbell: when you are trying to get an agent, and then when the agents is trying to sell your book, it will. It will help you with those gatekeepers to have a large social media following. 241 00:42:45.800 --> 00:42:47.970 Sue Campbell: but it has to be really large. 242 00:42:48.250 --> 00:42:57.450 Sue Campbell: right? So that's my caveat to that is like, if you really wanted traditional publishing, then it might make sense for you to spend some time building a social media audience. 243 00:42:58.220 --> 00:43:23.410 Sue Campbell: There's a great book, by Brendan Kane, called 1 million Followers to show you how to quickly and strategically acquire a large social media following. So you might want to check that out. Otherwise, if you're independently publishing, you do not need a large social media following, you want to be growing that email list, and you can use social strategically. And if it grows organically great, but that's not where you're going to spend your time and energy for your growth. 244 00:43:25.400 --> 00:43:47.759 Sue Campbell: Ian says in traditional publishing, how much will an agent or publishing company help carry the load of marketing? I'm so glad you asked this Ian, because the truth is hardly at all. In, you know, 98% of cases I work with traditionally published folks and I work with independently published folks. Traditional folks are often really surprised 245 00:43:48.000 --> 00:43:53.219 Sue Campbell: by how little help that they get right. So publishing. 246 00:43:53.630 --> 00:44:15.679 Sue Campbell: when they plonk down a big chunk of change to give someone a huge advance. First of all, that person probably already has an audience. So they know that book's gonna sell. But then they double down, and their marketing budget goes to try to push those books because those books defray the costs of publishing all of the other books. So they really devote that marketing budget to the people who got the biggest advances 247 00:44:15.810 --> 00:44:23.239 Sue Campbell: because they're kind of like just trying to leverage their book deals so that they're making the most money because they're a for-profit business 248 00:44:23.450 --> 00:44:45.430 Sue Campbell: so, and that they don't think of the reading public as their customers. They think of bookstores as their customers. That may be shifting somewhat now, but it was certainly was, you know, very, very true. When I started in 2,018. It's still mostly true. Today I have a book. I have one book that I independently published, and I have one book that was traditionally published. We got 249 00:44:45.670 --> 00:45:04.249 Sue Campbell: pretty much 0 marketing help from the traditional publisher, and I had a co-author for that book, and she was shocked, even though I told her all along like that that was gonna happen. So do not expect that traditional publishing is gonna carry the load of your marketing, no matter what you are going to have to do the lion's share of marketing. 250 00:45:05.350 --> 00:45:25.620 Sue Campbell: Lars says, how soon in the writing editing process should I start working on marketing? Okay? Great question. I get this one all the all the time. And I really, I'm probably gonna say it twice. So everyone's ears poke up. So I hear a lot of writers saying, Oh, my books not finished yet. So I I can't start on marketing, or I don't want to start on marketing. My books not finished 251 00:45:27.840 --> 00:45:30.020 Sue Campbell: as soon as you know 252 00:45:30.060 --> 00:45:36.329 Sue Campbell: the kind of story that you're telling and who the ideal reader for that story will be 253 00:45:36.790 --> 00:45:42.589 Sue Campbell: right. You're pretty solid on, like, okay, I know exactly who would want to pick up this book. 254 00:45:42.870 --> 00:45:57.710 Sue Campbell: Sometimes, of course, it shifts in the early stages, and we don't know. But as soon as you do know that even if it's going to take you another 3 years to write the book. You can start marketing, and I would encourage you to start marketing. Do you have to start marketing? Then? Of course not. 255 00:45:58.040 --> 00:46:04.540 Sue Campbell: But here's what I see happening to people who wait to market until their book is almost ready to be published 256 00:46:04.630 --> 00:46:15.927 Sue Campbell: is they haven't done the learning curve of marketing. They haven't built an audience of people who are ready to buy the book on publication. So they launch the book, and they have a really 257 00:46:16.540 --> 00:46:27.490 Sue Campbell: because they don't have that audience yet, and they don't know how to get that audience yet. They have an unrealistic expectation of how many books are just going to kind of magically sell themselves. And they get demoralized 258 00:46:28.080 --> 00:46:31.460 Sue Campbell: right? So they get super bummed out that the book's not selling. 259 00:46:31.700 --> 00:46:49.559 Sue Campbell: So I'm okay with you waiting to start marketing. But you're not allowed to get demoralized. Then. Right? You just have to be like. Alright. I decided to wait. That was my choice. And now I gotta go go go. And I'm not gonna expect to sell books right out of the gate. I know I'm gonna be building. I'm gonna use this book to actually build my audience 260 00:46:49.570 --> 00:47:04.999 Sue Campbell: alright. But I'm not allowed to get in a funk about it, because that's a choice that I made, so I would always encourage you to start as soon as possible, because there's a lot to learn if you have a big audience by the time your book launches that feels terrific because you can sell books right out of the gates. 261 00:47:05.290 --> 00:47:10.189 Sue Campbell: So great question. Thank you for asking it, because it's really helpful for a lot a lot of people. 262 00:47:13.640 --> 00:47:28.489 Sue Campbell: Michael says. Shall I get a publishing house to help me with my book or do it as self publishing. This is a really individual choice. I cannot tell you what to do, nor do I want to tell you what to do. But I would just do your research as to the pros and cons of each 263 00:47:28.834 --> 00:47:43.570 Sue Campbell: and that's not my exact. I have opinions, and I could talk about it for a while. But that's not my exact wheelhouse. So I suggest you go and learn sort of the pros and cons of traditional versus self publishing, because there's going to be an answer for you, but there's no right or wrong answer there. 264 00:47:45.858 --> 00:48:02.299 Sue Campbell: You say that the Internet is not recommendable for marketing. I definitely did not say that so? Well, I'll make a little nuance in a second but will you recommend it just for exposure, as in publishing or posting your writing on the Internet or social media. Okay, so 265 00:48:02.410 --> 00:48:30.860 Sue Campbell: Internet marketing is a hundred percent like where most of us are doing most of our marketing. So not telling you not to use the Internet for marketing social media, I'm saying, don't spend all your time and energy trying to build a so huge social media following to sell your book because the returns aren't great. I want you to use the Internet and use social media to build your email list, use all the avenues that you can from the Internet to build your email list. 266 00:48:31.100 --> 00:48:46.128 Sue Campbell: Yes, you can use social to develop relationships with agents and other writers. And you can. There are even places to post your writing on the Internet. So you can get feedback. You know, fanfake sites, or you know, other sites where they're 267 00:48:46.650 --> 00:48:54.539 Sue Campbell: People are posting things and develop followings. Yes, that's all fine. That's totally fine. But if your goal is to sell a lot of books. 268 00:48:54.930 --> 00:49:02.059 Sue Campbell: you definitely want to be building your email list as your top priority. So good clarification. Thank you for asking 269 00:49:04.880 --> 00:49:22.590 Sue Campbell: here's a Tiktok question. How exactly can you use Tiktok to promote and market your book, because that's something I still don't know how to do per se, so I don't have time to go into all the ins and outs of using Tiktok. My best advice is to go onto the Tiktok platform and look for the hashtag book, talk 270 00:49:22.750 --> 00:49:32.169 Sue Campbell: and look for authors who have books that are similar to you, who, of course, you're looking for fantasy books, but even more granular than that. See what other folks are doing. 271 00:49:32.190 --> 00:49:41.660 Sue Campbell: and kind of cross-reference with their Amazon rank to see if it's working or not. And then you can get ideas, and you can really see what's happening on Tiktok. 272 00:49:45.350 --> 00:50:00.930 Sue Campbell: Bill says, what happens if Congress bans Tiktok? Then all of the people who put all of their eggs in the Tiktok basket are going to have to scramble to come up with a new strategy. And that's the sad truth. It's gonna mess up a lot of authors who built a really strong presence on Tiktok. 273 00:50:01.000 --> 00:50:18.530 Sue Campbell: Right? You're you're building your house on somebody else's land, and then they sell the land. And then what do you do? So that is why I want you to build an email list, because that is your asset. Individual people can subscribe and unsubscribe. But if you're following the rules, you keep access to that list. 274 00:50:20.860 --> 00:50:46.420 Sue Campbell: Lj. Says, whenever I try to market my books through Tiktok, my account is only directed at bots and scammers, and I've been stuck at 250 views for 3 years. Yeah, and again, that's you wanna really kind of get in. And maybe you wanna take a particular class. Or maybe you're like, Okay, I really gave this a try for 3 years, and I'm not breaking through. My guess is there's some tactics that you could try. That would loosen that up a little bit. 275 00:50:46.717 --> 00:50:53.560 Sue Campbell: But yeah, I don't have time to go into all the Tiktok techniques. There are people out there who specialize specifically in Tiktok. 276 00:50:53.560 --> 00:51:02.829 Sue Campbell: You might want to check out like Jessica Cage, for example, who, I know, has been a speaker on the pro writing events, and you probably want to dig into some of the recommendations that she makes. 277 00:51:04.473 --> 00:51:12.140 Sue Campbell: I'm gonna Anna. I don't understand your question. It must be related to something else. So I'm gonna have to skip that one. 278 00:51:17.460 --> 00:51:36.449 Sue Campbell: okay. So anonymous attendee says our email lists. Really, I think it's do email lists, really sell books. I'm on several lists, and I'm interested by those authors. But constant emails irritate me so much by filling my email that I unsubscribe. Please comment, okay, great. This is such a good example. 279 00:51:36.590 --> 00:51:51.240 Sue Campbell: So you are an individual user who personally happens to be irritated by too many emails, even though you signed up. So you unsubscribe. That's great. We cannot make that mean that is how everybody else operates. 280 00:51:51.430 --> 00:51:52.189 Sue Campbell: Right? 281 00:51:53.220 --> 00:52:17.230 Sue Campbell: So don't assume because you feel a certain way about something that that's how somebody else feels about it. Because we have a ton of data that email lists actually sell books. It may be that you are not your own ideal reader. Your ideal reader is someone who does sign up for email lists and for the authors that person does. Love will read them and get excited about them. We also have to remember to create content that 282 00:52:17.420 --> 00:52:43.329 Sue Campbell: the other side of the person can. I'm not saying you're not. I have no idea. That other person can get excited about. Make yours the one that's worth opening and worth reading, not just the like. Oh, I sat down to write today. And here's my picture of my muffin and my cup of coffee, right? Like people are really beyond that. We want to be like, how can I really make this a great experience? And again, the answer to that question is, who is my ideal, reader? 283 00:52:43.390 --> 00:52:59.780 Sue Campbell: What did they want to see? If we were out to coffee together, what stories would I be telling them to make them laugh, or to make them cry, or whatever emotion they want to experience. So yes, people get irritated by emails in their inbox. A lot of people, too. Not everybody does. 284 00:52:59.810 --> 00:53:11.519 Sue Campbell: And it's really important that you decide to be the person who this is who I'm talking to, and if I'm talking to this person, I'm talking in such a way that she may unsubscribe to other things. But she's not going to unsubscribe to mine. 285 00:53:11.870 --> 00:53:20.679 Sue Campbell: Right? So you're really going for that. But if you have that attitude of Emailists aren't going to sell books because I unsubscribe from emails that is going to be a little bit of self sabotage there. 286 00:53:22.120 --> 00:53:26.009 Sue Campbell: Travis says, is blogging still worthwhile for fantasy authors. 287 00:53:26.230 --> 00:53:34.750 Sue Campbell: Again. I can't make a blanket statement, Travis. So figure out is your ideal reader still interested in reading blogs that you write. 288 00:53:34.980 --> 00:53:53.859 Sue Campbell: Blogs are content. So I would use any content you're doing for a blog. I would also send that to your email subscribers because people don't come and check blogs like they used to right like back in the blogging. Hey day, you'd go to the same site and see as this person put on a new blog yet, or you'd have an Rss feed. 289 00:53:54.070 --> 00:53:56.899 Sue Campbell: Now, people just want it to come to their inbox. 290 00:53:57.010 --> 00:54:16.819 Sue Campbell: So any bloggy content that you're doing, put it on your website because then you get the search engine optimization benefits. But you also want to be sending it out to your email subscribers. So my hunch is, yes, but you need to figure out for your particular ideal fantasy, reader, what needs to be in the blog, and that's going to make it worthwhile. 291 00:54:19.348 --> 00:54:38.520 Sue Campbell: Jesse says, what do you mean by email service provider. So when you are, have an email list of people who are in your audience, you need to have an email service provider that is, specializes in helping you manage that and in staying in compliance with email marketing laws. So mailer light convert kit 292 00:54:38.850 --> 00:54:55.950 Sue Campbell: mailchimp, which I don't like there are. There are a lot of them, so I can't list them all, but it's the place where they'll help you build the form. They give you the code to put on your website. So people can sign up. That's where that list lives is with your email service provider. 293 00:54:55.950 --> 00:55:10.719 Sue Campbell: You type up the email in there, you, you know, create campaigns and everything from there, and you send it out. So if you don't know what that means yet, that's totally fine. But just get on the Internet and search and get a clear understanding. So you can move forward. 294 00:55:15.830 --> 00:55:27.870 Sue Campbell: Okay. So Janice says, how does one start an email list when just starting out marketing, when you are just starting out and don't have your first book published. This is another great question that I get all the time all the time. 295 00:55:28.360 --> 00:55:32.084 Sue Campbell: My gosh! There are so many questions in the chat. You guys are amazing. 296 00:55:34.820 --> 00:55:42.890 Sue Campbell: this goes back to Lars. I think I had the question earlier of like, when do I start marketing? If you don't have a book, that's okay. 297 00:55:42.930 --> 00:55:54.700 Sue Campbell: you can still build an audience of people you want to figure out who your ideal reader is, and what can you talk about with them while you're over here writing the book so that by the time you're writing the book you have this cool audience 298 00:55:54.780 --> 00:55:58.059 Sue Campbell: full of people who are going to be really excited for that book 299 00:55:58.220 --> 00:56:16.700 Sue Campbell: right? Too many. This is like, really if you think about it, this is part of the reason why we have such a conflicted relationship with marketing, because we think it is all about selling that book, and if I don't have anything to sell, then I can't market to anybody. I don't have anything to have the relationship with 300 00:56:16.860 --> 00:56:27.499 Sue Campbell: right. But actually, no, we want to have a relationship first, before we ever try to sell anything to anybody, because we want to make sure that it's a good fit, and that it's a match. 301 00:56:27.500 --> 00:56:48.410 Sue Campbell: So consider this like almost like a dating period, right where you're like. All right. Well, let's let's get to know each other. And I'm doing this cool thing over here, and maybe when it's done you'll be interested in it great right. But do you do have things to talk about prior to your book being published. Think of it more as a conversation and a relationship you're developing rather than I can't do any marketing till I have something to sell. 302 00:56:51.130 --> 00:56:52.890 Sue Campbell: Let's see 303 00:56:55.246 --> 00:57:03.099 Sue Campbell: I'm gonna start Cherry picking questions a little bit here for ones that I think are gonna be most helpful for everyone. 304 00:57:05.250 --> 00:57:11.180 Sue Campbell: Drew, I would say, go that questions answered in the reader, persona webinar. So do that. 305 00:57:12.980 --> 00:57:29.011 Sue Campbell: okay, this is a good one. Sophia says, what if you have different book ideas in several different genres? Will that affect anything? This is a great question that applies for a lot of people, right? Cause our muse is like, oh, we're gonna write a fantasy book over here, and then we're gonna write a you know, cozy mystery over here. 306 00:57:30.480 --> 00:57:34.419 Sue Campbell: when you're an author who's publishing in multiple genres 307 00:57:35.070 --> 00:57:58.179 Sue Campbell: if you can, you want to find the common thread between your work. So you don't have to create multiple. They're called author platforms. Right? So your your marketing audiences that you build it's called your platform. It can be a lot more work to do marketing based on. You know this series over here and this series over here. 308 00:57:58.190 --> 00:58:26.559 Sue Campbell: So the more you can find the common thread and make it simple and just maintain one platform the better. So maybe you always have really strong female protagonists. Or maybe you're always writing about social justice issues. Or maybe you know, you're always writing really, really dark stories, even if they're in different genres. What's the common thread? And is there an ideal reader who'd be willing to read across all those genres. And then you're really building your platform with that ideal reader in mind. 309 00:58:27.420 --> 00:58:28.140 Sue Campbell: I. 310 00:58:28.340 --> 00:58:32.200 Sue Campbell: There's an author like some people write for adults and kids. 311 00:58:32.350 --> 00:58:36.147 Sue Campbell: and her page is really illustrative. 312 00:58:37.400 --> 00:58:43.739 Sue Campbell: not just for adults and kids. But if you have 2 clear, different genres that you're writing in. So Annie Barrows 313 00:58:43.940 --> 00:59:03.380 Sue Campbell: writes for adults and writes for kids. And the first page of her website has an illustration of some sign posts with arrows on them, and it's like for grownups. This way for kids this way, and then you click on it, and you're taken to a part of the site that's appropriate for whichever choice you made 314 00:59:03.600 --> 00:59:09.613 Sue Campbell: right? So you could do that with almost any genre you could be like dark thrillers this way. You know. 315 00:59:10.750 --> 00:59:29.430 Sue Campbell: whatever your 2 genres are, whatever subgenre a fantasy this way, that we, what we don't want is for a reader to get confused. So if on your homepage you've got so many things going on that you know an ideal reader for fantasy lands on your page and is like, I don't. What right? When people get confused, they click away. 316 00:59:29.500 --> 00:59:45.530 Sue Campbell: So make it as clear as you can. Sometimes you have to build different platforms, right? Sometimes you're writing erotic fantasy. And you're writing kids books. You gotta have different platforms and probably appending in that situation. But if you can find that common thread, use it because it will save you some work. 317 00:59:47.897 --> 00:59:57.662 Sue Campbell: We're gonna do one more because I don't want to run over time and throw Michelle off schedule here. 318 01:00:00.900 --> 01:00:19.310 Sue Campbell: Avalasha says. I hope you're pronouncing that right how to pitch a win-win situation to an influencer as a book writer. Author. So great question. I'm actually doing a workshop about this next week, a 2 day, 2 90 min sessions workshop. You want to look for the win-win. So again, know who your ideal reader is. 319 01:00:19.470 --> 01:00:33.179 Sue Campbell: find someone with that audience. And you're like, Hey, this is why a reader would want to listen to a podcast with me on it. This is what we would talk about, and then you give some fabulous talking points that would really delight that ideal reader. 320 01:00:33.330 --> 01:00:59.780 Sue Campbell: So, knowing your ideal reader, is really key to finding that win win. Because then you know how to serve that reader. And you could explain to the influencer how you're gonna do it, because if that influencer can serve their audience, that is a win win by definition, so a lot of it comes down to you doing the work to figure out what is going to be the winner. Alright, that's all the time I have. They're gonna give me the hook. So thank you all for being here really appreciate it. It was so fun to kick off this week. 321 01:01:01.030 --> 01:01:06.401 Michelle @ ProWritingAid: Thank you, Sue. This was great, and thank you to everybody who attended. We had so many questions. 322 01:01:06.770 --> 01:01:23.860 Michelle @ ProWritingAid: As always. Sue gives just so much information. Please head over to the hub to catch the replay her slides, and we'll have the audio transcript there as well, including the special link that we shared in the chat. So we'll see you in an hour for our next session. Bye, everyone.