WEBVTT 1 00:00:14.410 --> 00:00:16.260 Emilio @ ProWritingAid: Hello, everyone! 2 00:00:21.180 --> 00:00:26.113 Emilio @ ProWritingAid: We'll wait a couple of minutes to to let everyone join. 3 00:00:28.090 --> 00:00:47.939 Emilio @ ProWritingAid: I'm Emilio from providing 8 and thank you everyone for joining us today. In the meantime, if you can hear me, please drop your name and location in the chat, and we'll start when when more people join. Let's give a couple of minutes. 4 00:00:48.230 --> 00:00:49.460 Emilio @ ProWritingAid: So we see 5 00:00:51.250 --> 00:00:55.809 Emilio @ ProWritingAid: we see brandy from Vermont. 6 00:00:55.940 --> 00:01:04.370 Emilio @ ProWritingAid: Edwin from California, Andrew from, or drew from Texas, Kayla from Seattle. 7 00:01:04.640 --> 00:01:09.020 Emilio @ ProWritingAid: Bert from Connecticut, Dudley from England. 8 00:01:09.690 --> 00:01:11.269 Emilio @ ProWritingAid: Hello, everyone. 9 00:01:13.170 --> 00:01:17.470 Emilio @ ProWritingAid: Yeah. There's lots of people from all over the world 10 00:01:17.620 --> 00:01:20.149 Emilio @ ProWritingAid: which is great. We love to see it. 11 00:01:23.270 --> 00:01:25.900 Madison: A lot of people from Texas. That's where I'm from. 12 00:01:27.120 --> 00:01:29.670 Emilio @ ProWritingAid: Represent in Texas. Amazing 13 00:01:31.480 --> 00:01:32.640 Emilio @ ProWritingAid: a 14 00:01:33.350 --> 00:01:44.301 Emilio @ ProWritingAid: not so many from the Uk. Where I'm based but a few this Emma from Scotland and I'm I'm based in Glasgow. So also representing 15 00:01:47.580 --> 00:01:50.549 Emilio @ ProWritingAid: people from Canada as well. 16 00:01:58.130 --> 00:02:00.710 Emilio @ ProWritingAid: we have brandy from New England. 17 00:02:00.830 --> 00:02:03.020 Emilio @ ProWritingAid: yeah, from Warwickshire. 18 00:02:08.130 --> 00:02:16.186 Emilio @ ProWritingAid: Brandy from from Texas, says that Texas is pretty big, about the size of the Uk, which is true. 19 00:02:17.320 --> 00:02:20.590 Emilio @ ProWritingAid: We also have Bethan from Wales. 20 00:02:23.450 --> 00:02:37.190 Emilio @ ProWritingAid: And yeah, so we have people from from many different places. Joining us in this horror writers fest 21 00:02:37.340 --> 00:02:52.430 Emilio @ ProWritingAid: which we will get started or or we'll get start. We'll get this session started now. But 1st we just have a few housekeeping items. Yeah. 1st of all. 22 00:02:53.180 --> 00:03:10.889 Emilio @ ProWritingAid: if you want to access the replace, you can go to the Hub page which I'll I'll share the link shortly. In the hub you'll you'll find the replace, the replace. Another session materials within the the session listings. 23 00:03:11.190 --> 00:03:17.119 Emilio @ ProWritingAid: It may take a bit before this session 24 00:03:17.230 --> 00:03:23.519 Emilio @ ProWritingAid: is is added to the to the hub, depending on the time the the 25 00:03:23.540 --> 00:03:30.769 Emilio @ ProWritingAid: zoom and Youtube take to process the this the recording, but we will add them as soon as possible. 26 00:03:31.000 --> 00:03:42.240 Emilio @ ProWritingAid: and we will also add the session. Well, this and and all our sessions to our community page for all members to view. By November the first, st 27 00:03:43.070 --> 00:03:49.210 Emilio @ ProWritingAid: also, there's a special offer for all oral writer participants. 28 00:03:49.230 --> 00:04:18.639 Emilio @ ProWritingAid: You will receive early access to our upcoming Black Friday sale, which will give you 50% off premium and premium pro plans for both yearly and lifetime. You will receive just by by having sign up for our horrors. Writer, fest you will receive an email with more information closer to the sale. But if you haven't received anything. By Nova November the 16.th 29 00:04:18.829 --> 00:04:25.119 Emilio @ ProWritingAid: Please send us an email to hello@prowritingaid.com, and we'll be happy to help you 30 00:04:26.270 --> 00:04:30.130 Emilio @ ProWritingAid: if you want to keep the whole writing conversation going. 31 00:04:30.270 --> 00:04:42.999 Emilio @ ProWritingAid: We'd love to have you in our private online writing community joining is really easy. You just need to visit the the link that you see on your screen, and that we will post in the chat 32 00:04:44.590 --> 00:04:47.819 Emilio @ ProWritingAid: and log in with your providing it account info. 33 00:04:47.890 --> 00:04:50.929 Emilio @ ProWritingAid: Then you can hop over to the live event, chat 34 00:04:51.170 --> 00:04:53.829 Emilio @ ProWritingAid: to talk to other attendees. 35 00:04:54.870 --> 00:04:57.570 Emilio @ ProWritingAid: and we really appreciate if you could 36 00:04:57.770 --> 00:05:03.420 Emilio @ ProWritingAid: provide your feedback on horror. Horror! Writers fest in the survey that 37 00:05:03.430 --> 00:05:21.739 Emilio @ ProWritingAid: we'll link in the chat and on the hub for you. We really love hosting events like this, and your feedback plays a pivotal role in our future planning. Tell us what you loved, what you think that we could improve upon for next time, and what you would like to see at the future event. 38 00:05:22.746 --> 00:05:35.530 Emilio @ ProWritingAid: We also have a fun brand new writing challenge, coming up, calling 5 K. In 5 days, where participants in our community will write 5,000 works, words or more. 39 00:05:35.780 --> 00:05:52.709 Emilio @ ProWritingAid: Between November 4th and the 8th we'll have daily teachings, writing prompts, discussion, forums, and even live write-ins that you can take part in. It's free to sign up, and we'd love to see you there. The sign up Link will be in the chat and on the hub as well. 40 00:05:54.590 --> 00:06:03.320 Emilio @ ProWritingAid: Some reminders for today. If you have a question for our speak. Our speaker, Madison, please use the Qa. Box. 41 00:06:03.520 --> 00:06:07.760 Emilio @ ProWritingAid: You can find that button in the center of your zoom screen. 42 00:06:08.030 --> 00:06:26.949 Emilio @ ProWritingAid: If you like to chat with other viewers, please use the use the chat, and be sure to select everyone in the dropdown menu. So your question, or your or your your messages are visible to all viewers, otherwise they will come just to us, to Madison and myself 43 00:06:27.840 --> 00:06:37.630 Emilio @ ProWritingAid: and the links to your offers from writing aid and from Madison will be available on the horrors. Writer, fez hub. 44 00:06:37.680 --> 00:06:44.849 Emilio @ ProWritingAid: And with that being said, I believe we're ready to begin. So today we're joined by Madison Estes 45 00:06:45.110 --> 00:06:56.189 Emilio @ ProWritingAid: Madison, is this right? Hello, Madison, really nice to to have you here presenting for for the 1st time in our horror writers fest. 46 00:06:56.750 --> 00:07:09.209 Emilio @ ProWritingAid: Madison Estes writes horror and dark fantasy. Her short story pestilence made the Bram stoker recommended reading list, and her mother's official Nope list. 47 00:07:09.230 --> 00:07:29.370 Emilio @ ProWritingAid: Her work often revolves around villainous protagonists or heroines struggling with bizarre moral dilemmas. She's the editor of Roadkill, Texas horror by Texas writers volume. 6 she has taught horror, writing curses at the writing barn at the Durham Writing Group 48 00:07:30.350 --> 00:07:52.630 Emilio @ ProWritingAid: group. Sorry. Madison also runs a hybrid authortube horror tube Channel, where she posts, writing advice, videos, writing vlogs and horror reviews. You can follow her on Twitter at Madisonestes and Instagram at Madison, Page, Estes, or visit her website, Estesmadison dot website. 49 00:07:52.630 --> 00:08:07.829 Emilio @ ProWritingAid: dot com slash my site. Don't worry. If you didn't get that, I'll share the the links in a second. So thank you so much, Madison, for joining us. And yeah, I'll give you. The room is yours to present. 50 00:08:08.740 --> 00:08:21.495 Madison: All right. Thank you so much. Thank you for that introduction. I'm going to go ahead and get started. Now, this is my 1st time presenting. So please forgive me if there's a few technological hiccups 51 00:08:22.250 --> 00:08:27.150 Madison: only one presenter can share at a time. Oh, I I need you to stop sharing. So I can share. 52 00:08:29.350 --> 00:08:30.070 Madison: Okay. 53 00:08:30.070 --> 00:08:39.219 Emilio @ ProWritingAid: About that. Don't you worry. You're you're you're in great hands. Our our audience is is amazing. So 54 00:08:39.700 --> 00:08:41.790 Emilio @ ProWritingAid: so then don't worry. Everything will 55 00:08:42.220 --> 00:08:43.194 Emilio @ ProWritingAid: great. 56 00:08:44.179 --> 00:09:10.079 Madison: All right. So yes, I will be presenting on how to write horror villains and protagonists, and I already got such a great introduction. I won't talk about myself too much, but I am a horror writer. I've had many short stories published. I'm probably going to have a collection out by next year, and I run a authortube horror Tube channel that you guys might want to check out. If you enjoy this presentation, it's simply just youtube.com and my name. 57 00:09:10.702 --> 00:09:13.366 Madison: Okay, so let's go ahead and get started. 58 00:09:15.749 --> 00:09:27.429 Madison: So what is a villain? According to dictionary.com. A villain is simply a character in a play, novel, or the like, that constitutes an important evil agency in the plot. 59 00:09:27.459 --> 00:09:52.559 Madison: and a lot of people don't seem to understand the difference between an antagonist and a villain. And you know, because an antagonist is simply someone that comes into conflict with the hero or protagonist of the work. And if the protagonist isn't necessarily a moral person, the antagonist could actually end up being the good person in a story, so an antagonist doesn't have to be evil or do evil things. But a villain does. 60 00:09:53.749 --> 00:10:06.939 Madison: The easiest way that I remember this is that Dexter Morgan, which is one of my favorite horror, shows of all time. He's a villain protagonist. He is a serial killer that goes around killing other killers. 61 00:10:07.099 --> 00:10:07.954 Madison: And 62 00:10:08.849 --> 00:10:37.599 Madison: So even though he's the protagonist, it's all. In his point of view we hear his internal thoughts. The cops that are trying to catch him are actually the antagonists, even though they're not villains. So hopefully that clarifies it a little bit. So we're going to be focusing on villains, people that actually commit. You know, evil actions also, entities that aren't self aware, usually are not considered villains. So you wouldn't say that, like zombies, or animals, or animal monsters or villains, unless they have sentience. 63 00:10:38.659 --> 00:11:02.109 Madison: So one of the 1st things that you're going to want to focus on when you are crafting. Your villain is an iconic look. Even whenever you're writing a book, you still want to give your reader something to imagine. So you want to give your villain at least one or 2 things that are really distinct. A mask is often a really good place to start, because masks blur the line between human and monster, both visually and emotionally. 64 00:11:02.109 --> 00:11:22.129 Madison: and they allow people to do things that they would never do if they didn't have that cloak of anonymity, particularly when you think of the purge movies. The Purge series is a series where people are allowed to commit whatever crimes they want for one night, but they usually wear masks, because you don't want your neighbors to know that you killed one of the other neighbors. 65 00:11:22.579 --> 00:11:26.319 Madison: So a mask is often a really good place to start. 66 00:11:27.009 --> 00:11:56.269 Madison: You might also want to consider what your villain wears in a very practical way. If it relates to their occupation, it might relate to their socioeconomic status like Patrick Bateman from American psycho, is always in a business suit, and Annie Wilkes, from misery, lives in the country. She's very isolated and poor, so she, you know her clothes reflect that, and of course their appearance might also be a result of their incarceration. Like Michael Myers and Hannibal Lecter. Their iconic look is usually them in prison outfit. 67 00:11:57.299 --> 00:12:22.339 Madison: Also, you might want to think about how the appearance relates to the villain's mental state, you know. Do they struggle to control their emotions? If so, they might have cuts all over them from self-inflicted injuries or from getting into fights, and you know an asymmetrical cuts can also depict like an unbalanced emotional state, and if they are a comical or snarky villain, you know they might have. 68 00:12:22.339 --> 00:12:38.169 Madison: like some wild trait like Chucky's orange hair, or Freddy Krueger's Fedora. So definitely think about the look, although don't confuse the look with characterization, because appearance definitely helps characterization, but it's not a replacement for it. 69 00:12:38.169 --> 00:13:04.369 Madison: So you know, one to 2 telling details will often take you further than a page of description. Sometimes you want to pace your description and maybe have your protagonists or Pov characters. Notice one or 2 things, and then, later on, notice some other facet of the villain's appearance. It's usually not until, like the climax of the story. If you've been kind of keeping your villain in the shadows, that you'll kind of give a long description of what they look like. 70 00:13:07.899 --> 00:13:30.349 Madison: Another thing to think about that, especially with horror. Villains! More so than regular villains is how they move, which can be very unnerving if you do it correctly, you know. Do they float? Do they have a jerky, uneven gait, or, you know, do they have a very confident stride again, like Patrick Bateman from American psycho? He's going to walk very differently than Annie Wilkes or Michael Myers. 71 00:13:30.659 --> 00:13:45.079 Madison: Also many horror villains have really creepy mannerisms like Hannibal Lecter, or at least Anthony Hopkins. Portrayal rarely blinks Michael Myers has that iconic head tilt to the side before he kills his victims. 72 00:13:45.439 --> 00:14:01.989 Madison: You know. A few other examples would be like standing too close to people, licking lips, laughing at odd times. And then, you know again, these strange mannerisms can kind of help your audience realize that there's, you know, something not quite right with this villain 73 00:14:04.399 --> 00:14:16.449 Madison: weapons are also really important, you know they can kind of even be seen as an extension of the villain, especially with someone like Freddy Krueger. I have never seen any image of him without that iconic glove. 74 00:14:16.549 --> 00:14:46.349 Madison: and of course, any merchandise. You see, he's wearing that so definitely. Think. Try to think of the weapon as an extension of your villain, and of course, the most famous horror villains are called slashers, for a reason, because blades and knives and things like that, and stabbing is a lot more intimate than shooting. So you see that a lot in some of the most iconic horror films. But you know, there's also strangulation, suffocation, biting especially with werewolf villains. So that's something else to keep in mind. 75 00:14:46.609 --> 00:15:15.609 Madison: One of my favorites is jigsaw from the saw series, who kind of established a new type of Slasher with his poetic traps. So, for instance, in the 1st saw movie, he creates a game for someone that was suicidal that used to cut his wrists, and he puts him into a razor wire maze, basically, and tells him that he has to in order to escape, he has to cut himself again and again in order to escape. So kind of has a little bit of an Edgar Allan Poe ironic twist to it. 76 00:15:15.609 --> 00:15:36.559 Madison: And in that same series there's another one where a drug dealer has to dig through a pit of used needles in order to find the key to get an antidote that he needs. So you know, weapons can be really interesting. They can even be the sort of the gimmick, I hate to say, for lack of a better word. They can kind of be the gimmick that pulls your reader in, even if you do it well enough. 77 00:15:36.879 --> 00:16:05.219 Madison: Another symbolic weapon that I think is really great is Gage from Pet Cemetery. His father is a doctor, and so Gage gets one of his father's scalpels, and well spoiler sorry, kills his mother with it, which kind of symbolizes his father's instinct to heal or fix people being corrupted. So you know, that can also be another great thing you can do is you can take a symbol from your protagonist and then have the villain corrupted in some way like this. 78 00:16:05.219 --> 00:16:16.349 Madison: So and then, of course, when it comes to non villains giving them any kind of weapon, will humanize them and make them seem more intelligent. So that's something to keep in mind for those of you that want to write a villain. That kind of 79 00:16:16.409 --> 00:16:21.389 Madison: sort of goes between human and monster or animal like. 80 00:16:23.069 --> 00:16:44.029 Madison: Now, backstory is really important, especially, I think, in a novel, because it's I think you have a lot more potential to develop your villain and get inside their head, and it can relate to their motive, like Jason Voorhees, who almost drowned. Well, did drown, depending on your interpretation of Friday the 13, th 81 00:16:44.039 --> 00:16:47.649 Madison: and then comes back from the dead to punish campers. 82 00:16:48.025 --> 00:17:16.399 Madison: But not always, like Leatherface is a butcher in the remakes, and he goes around killing people and presumably eating them. But that doesn't really explain why, other than if you, if you watch the remakes, they kind of explain. It might be out of desperation. But in the originals it's just they just do it. And there's no explanation. And people love that series just as much. So I guess that's kind of an example of sometimes you can get away with being mysterious and not always explaining motivation. 83 00:17:16.449 --> 00:17:30.919 Madison: One thing to think, to consider, though, is to avoid the info dump. If you do want to explain your villain and their villainous actions. And I definitely prefer stories that are like that. You definitely want to kind of space out 84 00:17:30.919 --> 00:17:49.489 Madison: that information and definitely avoid just dumping it all at the very beginning of the story, because part of what makes reading horror so fun is kind of figuring out the mystery and figuring out why the villain is doing things. So if you could definitely add a few little clues before the big reveal at the end. 85 00:17:49.489 --> 00:18:06.209 Madison: and also, even when you're doing the big reveal at the end kind of trying to limit that horror. Or that villain Montage, so that your villain doesn't sound like a bond villain, I mean just a James Bond villain just explaining everything away. That would be great. 86 00:18:06.389 --> 00:18:22.459 Madison: Another thing with horror in particular, is that backstory can remove fear, and it can make audiences sympathize with the villain, and even root for them again to bring back the saw series. John Kramer, who's jigsaw in the 1st 3 movies. 87 00:18:22.459 --> 00:18:46.249 Madison: not super sympathetic because he's putting all these people in traps, and he's trying to make them appreciate their lives. That's his goal. That's his motivation, that's explained throughout the series. But it's really not until the 4th film that we get some idea of who he was before he started doing this. He's a guy that worked at a drug clinic trying to help drug addicts get clean. And then some horrible things happen to him and his wife. 88 00:18:46.379 --> 00:18:50.679 Madison: and she ends up miscarrying, and their marriage falls apart. And 89 00:18:50.699 --> 00:19:13.099 Madison: all of this is done to kind of show who he was before all this, and that his motivations are actually quite pure. So, so yeah, so backstory can be really great. A lot of people, including myself, love that movie. But it does make your villain less scary. So that's something to consider, especially if you're just writing a 1 off. How much you want to explain and how deep you want to get into that backstory. 90 00:19:14.039 --> 00:19:25.669 Madison: and especially with ghosts and otherworldly beings. Backstory often explains their existence. So that's something to keep in mind that that might be something that your reader is expecting. If you're writing a ghost story. 91 00:19:31.319 --> 00:19:33.689 Madison: So again, back to motivations. 92 00:19:33.989 --> 00:19:35.289 Madison: some people 93 00:19:35.629 --> 00:19:47.849 Madison: think your villain shouldn't have an explicit motivation. I disagree, I think, especially in books. I'm always looking forward to why the villain is doing what they're doing, but you know it does. It is successful sometimes, like the Halloween series. 94 00:19:48.350 --> 00:20:08.579 Madison: You know, versus something like the ring with Samara Morgan, where the whole movie is about the woman who watched the curse tape, trying to figure out why it's cursed and discovering what happened to this girl, the one that comes out of the TV and kills people. So you know you can go in either direction with it. You can be mysterious, or you can explain everything or something in between. 95 00:20:08.689 --> 00:20:29.469 Madison: And it's going to depend on the genre, too, because Gothic horror is a genre where you know, which tends to be about haunted houses, and think, Tim Burton, Tim Burton's like always Gothic horror, for the most part versus, like the splatter punk genre, which is very violent, and over the top a little bit like something like Tarantino, but with a horror. Spin 96 00:20:29.781 --> 00:20:40.679 Madison: so you know, you might want to figure out what particular branch of genre that you're writing, and that might kind of give you some clues as to how much motivation you want to reveal. 97 00:20:40.909 --> 00:20:51.269 Madison: and, of course, motivations, you know, you might just hold on to that until the very end of the story. If you're writing something that's like half mystery, half horror, like I know what you did last summer, or scream. 98 00:20:51.409 --> 00:21:03.589 Madison: and at the bottom, you know, just some common motivations or revenge. I think revenge is like the most common motivation in horror, but also love, grief, betrayal. All of those things can be great horror, villain motivations. 99 00:21:05.369 --> 00:21:33.589 Madison: Okay? So psychology is a product of physiology and sociology. So you're going to want to consider IQ strengths, brain chemistry, how they dress their way of holding themselves. And then you also want to consider sociology. So things like their family, their community, birth, order, schooling, were they bullied as a child, early training and all of the experiences that form their personality. Try to think about both of those things as you're forming your villain. 100 00:21:33.769 --> 00:21:36.109 Madison: and then you also might want to consider. 101 00:21:36.299 --> 00:21:57.819 Madison: maybe, what you personally believe, but also what you want to portray in your particular story of nature versus nurture, you know. Do you think that some people are just born evil, which is kind of what the Halloween series presumes, or is it nurture? Is it? Or, in my opinion, some combination of the 2, but I think that one of the most iconic lines from Halloween 102 00:21:57.819 --> 00:22:14.579 Madison: definitely shows a preference for nature in that line. I spent 8 years trying to reach him, and then another 7 trying to keep him locked up, because I realized what was living behind that boy's eyes was purely and simply evil. So that's definitely prime example of 103 00:22:14.579 --> 00:22:23.289 Madison: nature so definitely something to keep in mind whenever you're deciding how you want to portray your villain, and you know why they are the way they are. 104 00:22:24.719 --> 00:22:41.519 Madison: You also might want to consider villain redemption, or at least toying with the idea of it throughout the course of your story, and also think about, even if you don't want to redeem your villain, do they have any redeeming qualities, despite the fact that they're despicable. So Charlie Manx, from Nosferatu 105 00:22:41.519 --> 00:23:06.159 Madison: is a supernatural entity that takes children away from homes that are less than ideal, and he kidnaps them and brings them to Christmas Land, where they turn into monsters, and he thinks that he's saving this children, despite the fact that he's technically kidnapping them, turning them into monsters and then murdering their parents. But you know there are certain things that he won't tolerate, particularly in the book. There's a rapist character, and he 106 00:23:06.169 --> 00:23:20.209 Madison: does not believe that that's okay. And he also doesn't believe that abusing children is ever okay. So the even evil has standards is a really common trope in horror. So you might want to think about what standards your villain possesses. 107 00:23:20.639 --> 00:23:36.269 Madison: And then, yeah, again, if there is there a possible redemption arc, could you tease that possibility, you know. Think about how you might want to do that, and then also think about, you know, do you want them to almost make the right choice, and then, whatever it is that's causing them to do evil things. 108 00:23:36.592 --> 00:23:59.889 Madison: You know, is that going to take over and cause them to pull back and make the wrong choice at that critical moment. So you know, you can have them almost understand the protagonist side before you rip away all hope of redemption. And of course I included Negan in the side, because he is one that does get a redemption arc in the walking dead series, and he definitely is one of those evil has standards 109 00:23:59.919 --> 00:24:14.999 Madison: because he doesn't tolerate a lot of things again, like Charlie Manx definitely, very against rape and hurting children. So those are some pretty common traits. If you want to have your villain have standards, those 2 things tend to be the things that turn audiences off so 110 00:24:17.009 --> 00:24:38.939 Madison: dialogue, so it might be difficult. But you could write a horror story where your villain never speaks, and you definitely want to think about how they speak. Are they like Freddy Krueger? Are they cracking one-liners and jokes in between murdering people? You know? Do they have a gravelly, demonic voice? Are they like Freddy Krueger, and they can do both. 111 00:24:38.939 --> 00:24:52.359 Madison: John Kramer and Hannibal Lecter have very high intelligence, and you can tell whenever you either read the Silence of the Lamb series, or watch the movies that you know during these philosophical conversations how intelligent they are. 112 00:24:52.649 --> 00:25:11.389 Madison: And yeah, again, if you have your villain refrain from speaking, or at least refrain for a long time from speaking. That can be a really good source of tension, because if you can't communicate with someone, you can't reason with them, and then that makes them seem less human. And you know, I think, that that can be pretty unnerving at bare minimum. 113 00:25:12.725 --> 00:25:24.719 Madison: And then, yeah, of course. You know, you might want to use dialogue as an opportunity to discuss what they're obsessed about, or you know what relates to their motivation for why they're doing what they're doing. 114 00:25:25.629 --> 00:25:40.589 Madison: Revealing your villain is a really critical thing in your story, but you know you can do it at any time the movie it which I just rewatched last night. Funny enough, they reveal the villain right away in the very 1st scene. So 115 00:25:40.809 --> 00:25:52.449 Madison: that's something that you might want to consider, especially if your villain is a shapeshifter. That's no problem at all, because your villain is going to get to have a reveal scene over and over and over again every time it, you know, changes form. 116 00:25:52.986 --> 00:26:03.899 Madison: So, you know, and waiting to reveal their identity increases mystery and anticipation. So that's something else to consider. There's definitely an upside to waiting to reveal your villain. 117 00:26:03.909 --> 00:26:12.309 Madison: So if you show them right away, the suspense will usually come from well, when are they going to strike again as opposed to? Well, who is the villain? 118 00:26:12.699 --> 00:26:21.479 Madison: And then, you know, the longer you hold off, the more theatrical, the reveal should be in your story again, the example of jigsaw 119 00:26:21.589 --> 00:26:29.709 Madison: in the 1st film the reveal is very dramatic where he just kind of comes out of the background, basically of this of the 120 00:26:29.869 --> 00:26:57.319 Madison: the movie and reveals himself. And then John DOE from 7. You know, these cops spend the entire movie trying to find this killer, and then he just walks into the police station and surrenders covered in blood. It's a very great reveal scene. So you know. Think about some of your favorite horror movies or books that you've read, and how the writer chose to reveal the villain. And you know, think about that, and also think about how you want to reveal your villain, how dramatic you want that to be. 121 00:26:58.279 --> 00:27:10.379 Madison: And yeah, like, I said earlier, you know, if you've been sparsing out description a little bit here and there. Then you know, the the reveal scene is where you're going to want to use the most description and talk about your villain's appearance the most. 122 00:27:11.739 --> 00:27:39.539 Madison: So ask on to protagonist. So I think that for protagonists with a lot of stories that I watch and read. Backstory should be pretty minimal unless you're talking about a parallel storyline, which is a very different story. Structure, like the haunting of Hill House, is probably the most well known. But if you're going to have something a little more traditional like the walking dead, then, you know, you kind of want to keep it in the back as much as possible. 123 00:27:40.049 --> 00:27:53.899 Madison: And whenever you do reveal backstory, how does it directly relate to what they're going through? Think about that every time you reveal a little bit of backstory. Okay, how is this relevant to the present? Because if it's not, then you probably want to leave it in the past. 124 00:27:54.659 --> 00:28:21.099 Madison: Also, when you're writing, you might want to consider. Can I summarize this instead of turning it into a whole scene or a whole series of scenes. So, for instance, this is just an example I made up. You know. She never liked the woods. Her brother played a prank on her, and made her think that her parents were dead when she was a child. Ever since then the woods were a dangerous place. Boom got it out of the way. Now, this might be such an important part of the story. You do want to have several scenes. 125 00:28:21.099 --> 00:28:36.209 Madison: but if you just want to make it a point really quickly that she doesn't like the woods. That would be a really great way to do it. And then we're moving on like we're not staying stuck in the past and going revisiting this trauma. So just something to consider when you're doing background. 126 00:28:37.339 --> 00:28:56.839 Madison: you might also want to really seriously consider what their occupation should be, because if you have, you know someone in the military or police officer, 1st of all, you have to know all the procedures very well, or you're going to get readers to call you out on what you're doing wrong. But you know you're also going to. They're going to have strengths 127 00:28:56.949 --> 00:29:02.889 Madison: that other characters won't have, but the trade-off is that your reader might not be able to relate to them as well. 128 00:29:03.049 --> 00:29:28.609 Madison: and if they didn't receive formal training due to an occupation. And your character does have really good, like survival skills. Skills. The average person isn't going to have you need to think about. Well, how did they get those skills, you know? Were they previously in the military and left, you know, did they grow up on a farm, or like a you know country community. The character on the bottom is from the movie, your next. And it's a really great Slasher film where she kind of 129 00:29:28.709 --> 00:29:55.919 Madison: is the victim and then becomes the hunter. And it's because she grew up on a military compound with a survivalist uncle who taught her all of these skills for how to survive and how to fight back so great movie highly recommend it. And it's a really good example of how you can have a character who's like an Everyman, but she has this background as a child where she learned all these skills. So that's another thing to consider is, you know how they grew up, and that might be a way that you can. 130 00:29:56.211 --> 00:29:59.419 Madison: Add some skills to your character that otherwise wouldn't be there. 131 00:30:00.809 --> 00:30:12.199 Madison: Protagonist motivation, same thing with the villain, just, you know, instead of asking, why are they evil? What made them evil? Ask, well, why are they good? You know. Why are they the one that gets to defeat the villain or the monster and survive. 132 00:30:12.419 --> 00:30:19.239 Madison: You know again, same thing, how they dress brain chemistry, everything that you do for your villain. You're going to want to do for your protagonist. 133 00:30:20.399 --> 00:30:37.349 Madison: and you know an excellent way to show vulnerability both with the villain and the protagonist, is to show their background, you know. Were they bullied? Were they alienated from their family? Were they different in some way, and never got to fit in? All of these things are going to make your reader relate to your protagonist more. 134 00:30:37.629 --> 00:30:52.439 Madison: and don't forget to give them some kind of flaw, whether that's being a little too naive like. Maybe Rick, in the 1st couple seasons of the walking dead. That's a really good character flaw that keeps coming back over and over again. Are they impulsive? Are they a control freak 135 00:30:52.449 --> 00:30:57.039 Madison: definitely try to give them some something to make them a little less perfect? 136 00:30:58.699 --> 00:31:02.803 Madison: Okay, so external conflict is something that 137 00:31:03.599 --> 00:31:24.339 Madison: in your story. That is the result of forces outside of your character. So in American horror, story coven, you know, it's all the people that are trying to destroy the coven basically. And you know, it can be a demanding boss snowstorm. It could be anything. And this is probably going to be what sells your story. This is what you're going to pitch to your publisher or agent. 138 00:31:24.359 --> 00:31:52.359 Madison: It's the obvious conflict. And then the internal conflict is going to be the pleasant surprise that makes your character more realistic and sympathetic. So yeah, again, in American horror story, Cordelia has to deal with her mom, which is an external conflict. She also has to deal with that really complicated relationship that she has with her. And then, of course, they have to deal with the really really obvious conflict, which is everybody trying to kill her and the rest of the coven? 139 00:31:52.909 --> 00:31:54.949 Madison: Then you have internal conflict. 140 00:31:55.392 --> 00:32:15.349 Madison: You know your character should have at least one that's going on in addition to an external struggle. And you know, it's often an emotional problem like guilt. The feeling of abandonment trust issues things like that, or it could be like a vice like alcoholism, addiction, an identity issue, trying to figure out where they belong in the world. 141 00:32:15.659 --> 00:32:45.379 Madison: But whatever it is, it usually needs to relate to the external conflict, and it usually needs to appear in the story, and not just like be mentioned one time at the beginning, and then never come up again. It should be something that comes up again and again, and you know another example would be a character that fears abandonment, smothering their romantic partner with clinginess, or going the opposite route and pushing them away so that they don't get hurt so definitely want to try to think of something 142 00:32:45.379 --> 00:32:46.769 Madison: for your protagonist. 143 00:32:47.329 --> 00:33:03.649 Madison: Yeah, again, internal external conflicts are linked. The internal conflicts should ideally cause some of the external conflicts as well and vice versa. I like to think of it as like a synergistic relationship where these 2 conflicts kind of build up 144 00:33:03.649 --> 00:33:26.529 Madison: and impact each other in some way. Again, I think American horror story coven is a really good example where Cordelia saves the coven, which is the external conflict, and she deals with her mother issues in the exact same season, and those things are relevant because her mother is often part of the problem in trying to destroy the coven in some way for her own gain. So 145 00:33:26.529 --> 00:33:37.779 Madison: you know, those 2 things are always connecting over and over again, Cordelia kind of wanting her mother's approval, but also wanting to break away from her, and then also needing to protect the coven from her. So 146 00:33:39.895 --> 00:33:46.939 Madison: so one thing that is really overlooked, especially in horror is that you need to scare the protagonist at some point. 147 00:33:47.029 --> 00:34:02.909 Madison: I've heard of no tears in the reader or no tears in the right or no tears in the reader. I think if there's no fear in the protagonist, there's no fear in the reader. If your pov character is bored in some scene, then you need to rectify that quickly, or the reader will be as well. 148 00:34:03.109 --> 00:34:21.459 Madison: and a useful tip for that genre is who is the main character of this scene, what is their goal and what is at stake, and always try to keep that in mind while you're writing the scene. You know. I read a scene pretty recently where somebody was entering this really scary environment. 149 00:34:21.459 --> 00:34:43.199 Madison: and they pretty quickly got distracted trying to read something, and they were like, Oh, that's cool, and then it just ruined the mood of the scene, because up until that point I felt like, Oh, this is really creepy. All these details of like the skulls on the wall, and all this stuff. But then, as soon as the character was like, oh, that's interesting. I was like, well, the moment is gone now, so definitely keep that in mind that you want your main character to have some fear. 150 00:34:44.409 --> 00:35:04.279 Madison: These are some ways that you can do that. External physical reactions are things that you would see in a movie, a character freezing, trembling, covering their mouth. So they're not screaming. And you have internal physical reactions like heart racing that we can't see. But we can tell, because it's the pov character telling us what's happening. 151 00:35:04.710 --> 00:35:17.289 Madison: You know, dialogue. They can flat out, say, I'm terrified, or you know you can have them say it more indirectly, like, dear God! What is that? You know? Not expressing their feelings directly but indirectly they are. 152 00:35:17.678 --> 00:35:32.239 Madison: You know. You can also have character thoughts like, you know, directly. Oh, my God, he's gonna kill me! Or indirect, like she imagined him dying. It's kind of telling, but you know there might be times where that's appropriate to do that. 153 00:35:32.459 --> 00:35:48.939 Madison: So all of these are ways that you can make your protagonist scared, or show their fear on the page. And it's very important that you do that. Otherwise you're probably not writing a horror story. If your protagonist is just totally cool with all of the dead bodies that are around them, or whatever it is that they've stumbled across. 154 00:35:49.901 --> 00:35:59.049 Madison: And yeah, like, I said, definitely, avoid them getting distracted or having a lack of reaction, because then that minimizes everything else that you just did. 155 00:36:00.749 --> 00:36:29.769 Madison: Narrative distance is something else to keep in mind. When you're writing in your protagonist point of view, you're usually going to want to be close. Pov, regardless of whether it's 1st or 3, rd and consider revealing the characters thoughts instead of just showing their actions. So it's a combination of show and tell. So in the 1st example, Melissa's screams died down, footsteps echoed from the hall. He was on the other side of the door. He kept walking. The front door slammed. She sighed. 156 00:36:29.769 --> 00:36:38.459 Madison: So we weren't really that close to her in that scene. We don't get any of her thoughts. We don't get any physical reactions, you know. 157 00:36:38.479 --> 00:36:39.959 Madison: She's just sitting there. 158 00:36:40.399 --> 00:37:01.229 Madison: So, adding an external reaction, and 3 character thoughts expands that a lot as Melissa's screams died down. Footsteps, you know all that's the same. But her heart pounded. This is it! She thought. I'm going to die. He kept walking. She imagined him walking out of the house, giving her time to slip out. She willed him to leave. The front door slammed. She sighed. 159 00:37:01.229 --> 00:37:24.379 Madison: So it's a little bit more intense. I'm not saying either of those scenes are really great. They're just examples I came up with, but it shows how you can get a little bit closer by doing the things I just talked about in the previous slide, adding that external reaction, adding her thoughts, and again indirectly adding her thoughts. She willed him to leave where in her head we're imagining her desperation and her imagining him leaving. 160 00:37:24.379 --> 00:37:33.179 Madison: And this is a really great article at the bottom, or a link to an article that goes into even more depth on this concept. If you want to read that on your own 161 00:37:34.159 --> 00:37:53.159 Madison: again with weapons same thing with the villains, work with what you got, Lewis. The doctor kills his son Gage with morphine again, that relates to him being a doctor and wanting to heal people, which is a really strong theme in that story. And then, of course, you know symbolic weapons work well for protagonists as well 162 00:37:53.159 --> 00:38:08.969 Madison: like the tokens in it. Paul Sheldon, from misery. You know. You don't know that story. He's a writer that's kidnapped by a fan, who makes him write things for her own amusement. He kills her by shoving pages in her mouth to suffocate her and hitting her with the typewriter. 163 00:38:10.058 --> 00:38:31.429 Madison: And then, of course, another thing you can do is, you know, to have the protagonist have to improvise. Maybe they go into a scene thinking they're gonna attack the villain with one weapon. But that doesn't work out. So. Oh, what do you know? I have this symbolic weapon way over here that I can grab to kill the villain. So that's something to consider. 164 00:38:32.869 --> 00:38:57.039 Madison: Oh, yeah. Another thing is that something I see a lot in fiction is that most people need training to be really adept at shooting. So I think walking dead is a good show where it actually shows people having to learn how to shoot and not being great at it right away. So that's something else to consider, unless your villains like right there in point blank range. You know a lot of people are going to struggle with that unless they have learned that skill. 165 00:38:57.619 --> 00:39:01.859 Madison: and then don't have your protagonist ditch their weapon after they attack the villain one time 166 00:39:02.289 --> 00:39:28.319 Madison: I've seen it happen so many times, so you could write that if you wanted to, but it drives me nuts. So please don't, please don't. It's it's 1 of those cliches that I really hate. Yeah. So maybe they should hang on to that gun or axe, or whatever weapon they have. There's no reason to ditch it, especially if they're just gonna attack the villain one time and then run away, especially if it's just a gun, that's not that heavy. Just just hold on to it just in case. 167 00:39:29.569 --> 00:39:44.319 Madison: Okay, so character agency is one of the most important things, I think, with any character, but especially a protagonist, and that refers to the character, having the ability to make choices and take actions that actually influence the events of the story. 168 00:39:44.884 --> 00:40:08.639 Madison: So not just letting them choose what they have for breakfast, but choosing, you know whether or not they go after the villain, or whether or not they go look for the missing child in their neighborhood, or whatever. So this is a list of questions that I think that you should ask. You know, maybe before you even start writing your novel, but at least at some point, while you're in the middle of it. You know what are the main goals? What are some ideas they would come up with for achieving their goals. 169 00:40:08.829 --> 00:40:15.449 Madison: you know, at some point, usually the goal changes in the story. And then what are the new goals that this character is going to have. 170 00:40:15.469 --> 00:40:43.309 Madison: how their plans adjust to reach them? And then, most importantly, what is the character doing during the climax of the story? What active choices are they making? There's a lot of horror stories where the protagonist just reacts, reacts, reacts, never makes any decisions, never proactively tries to do anything, even if all of their plans fail. And this is a story where everybody dies, it's still good to have them making some kind of plan and not just constantly reacting because 171 00:40:43.309 --> 00:40:51.909 Madison: that gets boring. It makes your protagonist look really passive. And it's just more engaging whenever there's sort of a cat and mouse between the protagonist and the villain. 172 00:40:52.289 --> 00:41:15.529 Madison: Oh, in these examples Maxine just came out, and one of the biggest complaints of that movie is exactly what I said that the protagonist is just always reacting. She never actually makes a decision in the whole film to do anything other than you know. Just run from the killer, and then starry eyes is a very similar premise. They're both about actresses trying to make it in Hollywood, where she actually does make decisions. 173 00:41:15.529 --> 00:41:24.409 Madison: and she does things that get more and more morally scandalous in her determination to reach her goals. So if you wanted to kind of do a little 174 00:41:24.519 --> 00:41:32.529 Madison: double feature. That would be a really good example to see with a very similar premise. You know one character that has agency and one that doesn't. 175 00:41:34.239 --> 00:41:57.119 Madison: Okay. So the villain hero dynamic is really important. You don't want to overpower your protagonist, and the way you know your protagonist is overpowered. Is you kind of compare them to the villain, and the reader should always feel as though the villain is either a few steps ahead of the protagonist, no matter how clever they both are, or that the villain is so powerful that the protagonist's attempt to escape at least might not work. 176 00:41:58.791 --> 00:42:00.597 Madison: You know. And 177 00:42:01.929 --> 00:42:20.459 Madison: you know, I think that nose for auto is a really good example, because Vic Mcqueen has the ability to form a bridge in her mind called the Shorter Way Bridge, which can take her anywhere. She wants to go and helps her find things, but there's a cost to using it, which is that it gives her migraines, and it also causes her to start losing her sanity the more she uses it. 178 00:42:20.459 --> 00:42:36.439 Madison: So it's a really powerful trait to give a protagonist, but luckily she's paired with an equally powerful villain, which is Charlie Manx, who is a threat throughout the whole story. Again. He's the guy that takes kids to Christmasland because he has his own little. 179 00:42:36.949 --> 00:42:56.489 Madison: not imaginary, non-physical world that he's able to bring them to. And he's also an incredibly powerful antagonist or villain. So so they work well because they both have superpowers. But you definitely don't want to give your hero too much power. I think, Alice, from the resident evil movies 180 00:42:56.689 --> 00:43:07.659 Madison: in the 1st film she's very much a damsel in distress until you know her amnesia goes away, and then she's a badass all of a sudden, and that's great. I feel like the 1st one still does a good job of 181 00:43:07.659 --> 00:43:31.059 Madison: increasing the threats over and over. So you kind of still feel like they're always in danger. But then, in the later installments, she's like crazy, powerful. She's got like telekinesis and telepathy. She can mind control people. She's got all these skills, and the threat remains the same. It's always zombies. And the umbrella corporation. So that's a kind of a good example of a character whose agency and power gets 182 00:43:31.059 --> 00:43:42.549 Madison: bigger and bigger and bigger to the point where it doesn't really even feel as much like a horror story. Still love those movies. They're like my guilty pleasure films, but they they are a really good example of an overpowered protagonist. 183 00:43:44.169 --> 00:44:11.259 Madison: So the villain usually has more agency in a horror story, at least, than any other character in the story, you know, because they're usually the ones that are choosing their victims, setting up traps, deciding how to execute their victims. So that's something to keep in mind is that you want to have both characters have agency as well. You know, one exception is Wishmaster, another really great series where the dark genie has to grant wishes, but they're always cursed 184 00:44:11.259 --> 00:44:16.949 Madison: so a lot of times that involves him like taking a very literal interpretation of someone's wishes. 185 00:44:16.949 --> 00:44:41.539 Madison: But the villain does have some autonomy, because he has, even though he has to act within the limitations of those that make the wish. Like he has to grant it, he can interpret it, however he wants. So again, it's a good example of technically all of his victims have some agency, because they all get to decide. Well, how do I word the wish? And what do I wish for, but he's the one that gets to decide how to interpret it. So you have to be. It's a very difficult or a very. 186 00:44:41.769 --> 00:44:45.039 Madison: It's a contract you want to get just right. Basically. 187 00:44:45.592 --> 00:44:59.469 Madison: You know, the idea isn't to make your protagonist agency greater than the villains. There should definitely be a balance, and I think that in the best stories you know, the protagonist and the villain or antagonist. If you don't have a villain. 188 00:44:59.609 --> 00:45:05.189 Madison: they always feel like they're affecting the plot, and their actions are always affecting each other. 189 00:45:05.559 --> 00:45:10.779 Madison: That doesn't mean they have to be on equal ground all the time, or they have to have equal powers. 190 00:45:10.819 --> 00:45:25.339 Madison: or even if they have to have the same amount of victories, it can be that the villain just keeps on killing and killing and killing and winning until the very end, and then maybe they even win at the very end. But it definitely means that they should both have some impact on the overall story. 191 00:45:27.059 --> 00:45:54.479 Madison: Okay? And that is it for the presentation. Thank you guys so much for being here and for listening. This is my Youtube, channel with lots of authortube horror tube related videos, I definitely would recommend horror trends. That seems to be something that a lot of people are always interested in, regardless of whether they're writers or not. But I hope you guys will check these out if you enjoyed this presentation. 192 00:45:54.739 --> 00:45:57.719 Madison: And now I'm ready for any questions you guys might have. 193 00:45:58.469 --> 00:46:00.109 Madison: and I'll stop sharing. 194 00:46:00.830 --> 00:46:11.130 Emilio @ ProWritingAid: Thank you so much, Madison. That was that was really interesting, and everyone in the chat was really excited and sharing some of their 195 00:46:12.670 --> 00:46:22.420 Emilio @ ProWritingAid: comments and and and also questions in the Q. And a. So we have a question from Sophie. Sophie asked. 196 00:46:22.540 --> 00:46:28.479 Emilio @ ProWritingAid: what is a good approach to setting up and revealing red herring villains. 197 00:46:29.710 --> 00:46:33.718 Madison: Pairing villain. Okay? So I'm assuming that means 198 00:46:34.600 --> 00:46:40.085 Madison: like the bait and switch I don't want to give that example away. Beetlejuice just came out. Never mind. 199 00:46:40.550 --> 00:46:41.425 Madison: But 200 00:46:42.450 --> 00:47:06.219 Madison: okay, well, I probably would need a minute to think of a specific example. But yeah, I do understand. Honestly, I think if it's a red herring, and you want to do a really good job of setting up a red herring villain, you would approach it the way that you would, revealing a regular villain in the same way. Make it just as dramatic. Whatever whatever type of story you're writing, if it's like a monster story, you know. 201 00:47:06.300 --> 00:47:34.752 Madison: have that big reveal where they come across the monster's lair, and the monster just suddenly appears, even if the real villain is like oh, Sleepy Hollow is a good example. Even if the real villain is somebody that controls the monster like in Sleepy Hollow. There's a character in that story that controls the headless horseman. You know you still want to save that for the very end, I would think. And since you know, the red herring is sort of the bait and switch 202 00:47:35.110 --> 00:47:55.769 Madison: and you know it doesn't have to be as big of a reveal as revealing the red herring. Actually, you can do whatever you want. But I think that just sometimes just the fact that it's like, Oh, the monster was being controlled by someone else. You know it's shocking enough that that is a big reveal, even if it's not, you know, on the surface, as revealing as like a giant monster coming out of the ground or something. 203 00:47:56.216 --> 00:48:13.110 Madison: So I hope that answers your question. But there's no like hard, fast rules for something like that. But I definitely think that you know, give yourself credit, at least for even deciding that you want to have a red herring, because not everybody does that in a horror story. So I love stories like that. Good luck with your project. 204 00:48:14.740 --> 00:48:26.449 Emilio @ ProWritingAid: Thank you so much, Madison. We have a question from eclipse as well. Eclipse says I've learned a bunch from your presentation. Why is the main difference between dark versus horror. 205 00:48:26.510 --> 00:48:28.550 Emilio @ ProWritingAid: I'm a newbie to this genre. 206 00:48:28.670 --> 00:48:29.630 Emilio @ ProWritingAid: Thanks. 207 00:48:30.480 --> 00:48:32.849 Madison: Between what? I'm sorry. What was the question. 208 00:48:32.850 --> 00:48:34.500 Emilio @ ProWritingAid: Dark and horror. 209 00:48:35.520 --> 00:48:37.270 Madison: Between dark and horror. 210 00:48:37.270 --> 00:48:37.615 Emilio @ ProWritingAid: Yes. 211 00:48:37.960 --> 00:49:00.379 Madison: Okay. So I guess you mean like dark fiction, dark fantasy. It can be a very fine line. In fact, I'm still deciding that myself. I'm working right now on for my channel like my top. 10 horror films of the year, and I'm like, does beetlejuice count as horror. I don't think it does. I think that's the one I'm going to leave off the list, maybe give it an honorable mention. 212 00:49:00.390 --> 00:49:27.099 Madison: But even though there was a couple scenes in that that actually like I was watching it in the D box. I actually like jumped and was scared. So there's no hard, fast rule. Typically, if something is very violent, and you have like a serial killer that goes around murdering people, it's almost always going to be labeled as horror instead of dark fiction. And then, you know, if you have, like a supernatural like ghost. 213 00:49:27.550 --> 00:49:55.773 Madison: things like that are usually going to be horror werewolves and vampires, it's like it could go either way, because there's a lot of things like Buffy, the vampire slayer. That's like dark fantasy, because there's not really that much that's intended to scare. You might want to go back to the definition of what horror is which was originally in this Powerpoint, and I cut it out for time. But horror is anything that is designed to cause fear, disgust, revulsion. 214 00:49:56.210 --> 00:49:59.161 Madison: I think that that was the exact definition. 215 00:49:59.620 --> 00:50:07.619 Madison: so you know. Think about whether or not that's like your primary goal in this story is to have lots of scenes that cause fear and revulsion. 216 00:50:07.917 --> 00:50:31.989 Madison: Or if it's just some dark themes. But overall, you know, the focus is on something else. So something like game of thrones would actually be dark fantasy because there's a lot of murder. There's a lot of death, but the focus is usually on like characters trying to attain power. It's not really on like the horror and the terrible things that are happening. It's kind of put in the background. There's a lot of characters that die off screen 217 00:50:32.375 --> 00:50:51.319 Madison: or like, tortured mostly off screen. So that's 1 way that you might think about it is also, how much of the violence am I going to focus on, or how much of the gore, or whatever the scary element is, but it can definitely be a fine line. And it's it's open for interpretation. Even people that are like. 218 00:50:51.320 --> 00:51:06.049 Madison: you know, been in the horror genre for a very long time longer than me. Sometimes, struggle with what the definition is exactly, or you know, and everyone's going to have a different, a different opinion, because different things scare them. So 219 00:51:06.340 --> 00:51:07.670 Madison: I hope that helps. 220 00:51:08.710 --> 00:51:20.250 Emilio @ ProWritingAid: Thank you so much, Madison. We have another question from an anonymous attendee, any tips on how you write your premise and synopsis without giving away the villain. 221 00:51:21.120 --> 00:51:21.960 Madison: Oh. 222 00:51:23.320 --> 00:51:24.230 Madison: yeah. 223 00:51:24.800 --> 00:51:25.920 Madison: so 224 00:51:25.970 --> 00:51:35.929 Madison: that can be really tricky. For me. Actually, now that I think about it, one of the stories I'm working on is actually kind of the red herring villain where these characters think that 225 00:51:35.960 --> 00:52:02.330 Madison: you know they return to the small town. They think a serial killer has come back from the grave, but they find out, like in the midpoint of the story, that it's actually a copycat. So one way you can do it is to actually, I hate to say lie to the publisher or lie to the editor, but they're going to read the story before they accept it. So they're gonna you know. You want to treat them just like you would the reader, and just pitch it as if you know the red herring is going to be the villain of your story. 226 00:52:02.330 --> 00:52:30.134 Madison: and that's 1 way I think you can avoid spoilers. Or if you know you're writing a story about, let's say a serial killer. So you know, there's not really a red herring, but you don't want to reveal the identity. Use really vague terms like the killer, the killer and use gender neutral pronouns like there, so that you don't give away the gender. Obviously. But yeah, I mean, I have to know more specifically what your premise is before I could know exactly how I would word it. But 227 00:52:30.690 --> 00:52:33.540 Madison: yeah, I mean, you know, gender neutral 228 00:52:34.410 --> 00:52:38.991 Madison: use like a a nickname for the killer or monster 229 00:52:40.190 --> 00:53:00.459 Madison: and I guess maybe in some cases where, if you don't want to reveal what type of monster it is, you know again, just try to be pretty vague, and maybe try to find another element of your story that you can focus on. That won't be a spoiler. So if you know the heart of your story. It's about 2 brothers that are bonding while they're searching for a monster in the woods. 230 00:53:00.460 --> 00:53:16.250 Madison: Focus a lot on their dynamic and keep the monster a little bit vague. So yeah. And again, when you're trying to pitch to agents and publishers and things like that, just think of them as your 1st Reader, you know. How would you? What would do you think you would put on the back blurb of your book 231 00:53:16.290 --> 00:53:34.869 Madison: to sell the story to readers without spoiling it, and I think that's exactly what I would tell. You know the agent or publisher is exactly the same thing. I would tell any reader, because, yeah, you definitely don't want to. You definitely don't want to spoil the whole thing before they read it, because then they're not. Gonna they're not going to feel the surprise. And that's what you want. You definitely want to keep that. 232 00:53:36.700 --> 00:53:43.370 Emilio @ ProWritingAid: Yeah, that makes that makes perfect sense. Madison, we have a question from Cassidy. 233 00:53:43.550 --> 00:54:00.359 Emilio @ ProWritingAid: Cassidy asks, how would you go about explaining the villain's background and origin story. If the story is from 1st person Pov, and they don't necessarily find out who their who their villain is. Toward the end, or if at all. 234 00:54:00.560 --> 00:54:03.240 Emilio @ ProWritingAid: or is it not necessary in this situation. 235 00:54:04.840 --> 00:54:13.860 Madison: Yeah, it's definitely not always necessary. If you especially if it's like a mystery one, or like a whodunit like the scream movies. 236 00:54:14.191 --> 00:54:24.729 Madison: You don't usually find out who the killer is until the very end, although I take that back in those movies. For the most part they, the killer is someone like in the movie. So 237 00:54:24.730 --> 00:54:49.380 Madison: like, it's a whodunit. So it's in the regular cast of supporting characters. So if the villain isn't like in the cast of supporting characters which that would be one way to do. It is, you know, if you could find some way to make the villain one of the supporting characters, then, when you develop them, the readers or the reader view, or whoever is like, Oh, well, that's just character development, because that's a supporting character, but say, like the villain is in the background the whole time. 238 00:54:49.673 --> 00:54:56.710 Madison: You don't know who they are or what their motivation is at all. And you know the whole stories from the protagonist Pov. 239 00:54:56.860 --> 00:55:09.390 Madison: I think that there's still ways you could give an inkling of their motivation, because whatever thing is happening in the story. If it's like a ghost story, and mysterious things are being moved around. 240 00:55:09.410 --> 00:55:29.739 Madison: or you know, whatever you could still give clues for what the motivation is. So if the motivation is revenge because their lover was killed, or something, then you could have the protagonist, like, you know, have, like a jewelry box move or something, and inside the jewelry box is a picture of the lover. So there's still like little clues along the way. 241 00:55:30.110 --> 00:55:44.179 Madison: That's just one random example, but you can still put something in there. They could find a diary. Not necessarily the villain's diary, maybe somebody else's that just happens to mention. You know, whatever the villain's motivation is. 242 00:55:44.566 --> 00:55:51.899 Madison: You know. Sometimes characters will have visions or flashbacks that could be some way to reveal the villain's motivation 243 00:55:52.236 --> 00:56:03.020 Madison: photographs that the characters stumble across. There's definitely ways you can do it. But whether or not it's interesting enough to include or relevant is something you're going to have to decide. 244 00:56:04.770 --> 00:56:32.400 Emilio @ ProWritingAid: Thank you so much, Madison. I think we have time for a couple more questions. And actually, there's 2 questions from Maya that we can group in one. So Maya asks, how far do you think violence should go in a children's horror? How scary! And also what would you keep away from in terms of violence for children's or so. What would be the 245 00:56:32.650 --> 00:56:35.309 Emilio @ ProWritingAid: the boundaries that you wouldn't cross. 246 00:56:36.550 --> 00:56:50.070 Madison: Okay. So 1st of all, I'll say that I read a lot of goosebumps growing up, and some of that stuff was to this day. Still, some of the scariest stuff I've ever seen or read about. You know the 247 00:56:50.070 --> 00:57:06.859 Madison: stay out of the basement with like the plant monster, and say cheese and die with like the camera that kills you, which is very reminiscent of final destination. Some of that stuff's really scary, and that was back in the nineties. Now I think the threshold for what you can get away with is still much higher 248 00:57:07.297 --> 00:57:26.910 Madison: than it was. In fact, last time I had trick or treaters come by. They were like little 5 year olds and 6 year olds, like dressed like Michael Myers and a little bit older, you know, they'd seen the saw movies and they loved, they commented, complimented my costume, and I was like, you're like 8 years old. You shouldn't have seen saw already. 249 00:57:27.560 --> 00:57:30.932 Madison: But you know the threshold, I think, for what kids 250 00:57:31.280 --> 00:57:34.649 Madison: tolerate now is a lot higher than it was when I was growing up. 251 00:57:35.092 --> 00:57:40.170 Madison: But like as for obviously, you don't want to necessarily write a villain that's 252 00:57:40.350 --> 00:57:41.400 Madison: to 253 00:57:41.410 --> 00:57:56.810 Madison: graphic or too gory. If you're trying to aim for a children's market, my best advice is just to read a lot of children's literature that's going to be the best way that you can see what they get away with. And 254 00:57:57.250 --> 00:58:04.130 Madison: yeah, I don't write children's literature. So I'm I'm just trying to think back to like back when I used to read it a lot 255 00:58:04.745 --> 00:58:22.629 Madison: yeah, I mean, just limit the gore, and especially sex scenes. Those are probably gonna want to leave those out completely. But yeah, when it comes to murder, you might want to do fade to black, kind of like again, with like any kind of romantic scenes with kids 256 00:58:22.630 --> 00:58:38.839 Madison: or with young adult books. You're usually going to want to fade to black same thing with the with, like the outright murder scenes you might do like a fade to black where the character screams, and then in the next chapter, they discover the character's body or something, but definitely. 257 00:58:38.870 --> 00:58:54.159 Madison: definitely, just going to want to have to read a lot of it, to understand what you can get away with, and I love Arl Stein so that would be a good place to start. But you might also want to see who is trending with like contemporary 258 00:58:54.160 --> 00:59:12.740 Madison: children's horror, and maybe start there too, because anything that's published in the last couple of years is going to tell you more about what you can get away with than the nineties, where I think maybe you couldn't get away with as much. Maybe I don't know. I haven't read a lot of recent young adult horror. So I'm just guessing. But. 259 00:59:16.350 --> 00:59:34.509 Emilio @ ProWritingAid: Thank you so much, Madison. This was such a great session. Thank you, everyone as well for joining. We'll try to answer the questions that we we couldn't answer, live either in the community or yeah, I think it will be in the community. 260 00:59:34.580 --> 01:00:03.739 Emilio @ ProWritingAid: So a really, really big, thank you. Let's let's give a big thank you to Madison for generously spending her time with us, and as always, you can find the replay in the horror, or you will be able to find the replay in the horror writers. Hub. I'll paste the the links again so you can. If you if you miss them. You can see them now. 261 01:00:04.070 --> 01:00:29.190 Emilio @ ProWritingAid: and we hope you join us for our next session, which is in an hour more or less, and also we have another panel tomorrow at this at the same time. Well, at the same time that this started. But tomorrow with Madison and another authors so join us tomorrow as well. 262 01:00:29.200 --> 01:00:35.679 Emilio @ ProWritingAid: And yeah, thank you so much, everyone. Thank you, Madison, for joining us, and have a lovely rest of your day. 263 01:00:39.060 --> 01:00:39.980 Emilio @ ProWritingAid: Bye-bye. 264 01:00:40.680 --> 01:00:42.680 Madison: Hi! Thank you all for coming. 265 01:00:42.870 --> 01:00:44.119 Emilio @ ProWritingAid: Thank you. Bye-bye.