WEBVTT 1 00:00:04.830 --> 00:00:12.058 Sarah @ ProWritingAid: Okay, yeah, there we go. People started to come in. That's brilliant. Hi, guys, okay, let me grab up my 2 00:00:12.710 --> 00:00:42.150 Sarah @ ProWritingAid: screen just here. So, Hi, everybody! I'm Sarah from Paris. 8 thank you for joining us today. I'm just letting you guys all come in. But if you can see and hear me, which I hope you can. Please drop your name and location in the chat, and we'll see where everybody's calling from today. I haven't had anybody posting. Oh, there we go! We've got Susan from Minnesota laurel from Maryland, Barbara from Victoria BC. 3 00:00:42.150 --> 00:00:53.109 Sarah @ ProWritingAid: Steven from Texas. Everybody's starting to fall in and everybody doing exactly what I was expected to do with. It's just going really, really fast. So there we go. That's good. That suggests that you guys can see and hear me. So that's 4 00:00:53.180 --> 00:01:00.409 Sarah @ ProWritingAid: always a great place to start. Let me just share my screen. There we go. 5 00:01:00.790 --> 00:01:14.300 Sarah @ ProWritingAid: So you should be able to see the slides. Now, I'm just gonna grab the chat up as well so that I can actually see you guys. So yeah, if you can let me know if someone could just say that they can see the slides that would be perfect. 6 00:01:15.160 --> 00:01:18.619 Sarah @ ProWritingAid: Yep, you can see it nice one. That's good. Right. So 7 00:01:19.000 --> 00:01:32.750 Sarah @ ProWritingAid: before we get started, we just have a few housekeeping items, so I will start going through. So how to access your replays so replays will be added to the Hub page. Once they're done processing by zoom 8 00:01:33.046 --> 00:01:50.510 Sarah @ ProWritingAid: it can take a little bit of time, but most likely it will be the next day or later in the day that we start putting them up, we literally put them up as soon as they're ready. The replays will also be available from the providing Aid Community Page for all members to view. By June 28, th 9 00:01:51.890 --> 00:01:58.140 Sarah @ ProWritingAid: and then your premium day details. So Monday to Thursday, sessions are free for everyone to attend. 10 00:01:58.140 --> 00:02:23.070 Sarah @ ProWritingAid: and then Friday sessions are limited to premium and premium pro users only so free users. If you want to see them, you can upgrade during the week, and then you will get an email. And everyone who is premium repeat will get an email on Friday morning with the link to the Hub. That is specific to you guys. So if you're worrying about not having access to it for now don't worry 11 00:02:23.070 --> 00:02:40.650 Sarah @ ProWritingAid: about it. You will get the link on Friday morning. If you don't before the 1st session and you want to join that session, please just drop us an email. And it's preferable that you email us so that we can see your account details. And then we can obviously email you that link directly as well. 12 00:02:41.540 --> 00:03:02.869 Sarah @ ProWritingAid: Okay, next one. So your offer for this week. If you do decide to upgrade to premium or premium pro is 15% off the yearly licenses. We've got a lot of new tools and features that you won't have access to on a free account. So obviously, it's worth giving that a go. 13 00:03:03.540 --> 00:03:24.429 Sarah @ ProWritingAid: I will just add that this time rather than a link to the discount. We will need you to add the code CWW. 2024. So for crime writers week 2024 to access the discount. The offer ends on July 6.th You can find out more information about this on the Hub. 14 00:03:25.800 --> 00:03:40.830 Sarah @ ProWritingAid: and then, if you want to keep talking crime writing, we have an amazing community of writers, and we also even have some of our speakers in our community as well, so you can talk with other writers. You can talk with some of the speakers 15 00:03:40.830 --> 00:03:58.319 Sarah @ ProWritingAid: people at pro writing aid. And yeah, if we want to keep talking about crime writing, which we always want to talk about crime writing, or any writing, to be honest. But there you go. You'll join us on the community. The link is on. I believe it's on our hub, but either way I can drop it into the chat in a moment. 16 00:03:59.340 --> 00:04:05.510 Sarah @ ProWritingAid: and then just some reminders for this session. So we do have a Q&A box. 17 00:04:05.793 --> 00:04:30.499 Sarah @ ProWritingAid: I will be looking at the QA. Box during the thing. So if there's any questions for me, then that's great. But we do recommend you leave any questions in there for our speaker, because we will have time for QA at the end. So if you've got questions, and you really want to know the answer to them, please put them in there. However, if you want to chat amongst yourselves, then we do encourage you to use the chat as well. The chats 18 00:04:30.500 --> 00:04:36.899 Sarah @ ProWritingAid: usually go pretty quickly in these in these sessions, depending on who's 19 00:04:36.900 --> 00:04:53.149 Sarah @ ProWritingAid: in them. So I'm I'm really intrigued to see what happens. I always lurk in the chat as well, so you can always chat with me in there. But yeah, and I will also post in the links from our speaker, and also to the hub and the community, and things like that 20 00:04:53.350 --> 00:04:55.190 Sarah @ ProWritingAid: in the chat in a second. 21 00:04:55.670 --> 00:04:56.720 Sarah @ ProWritingAid: So 22 00:04:57.030 --> 00:05:05.100 Sarah @ ProWritingAid: with that out of the way, I will stop sharing my screen and get back to what we are doing today 23 00:05:05.290 --> 00:05:06.380 Sarah @ ProWritingAid: say. 24 00:05:06.690 --> 00:05:28.769 Sarah @ ProWritingAid: today we are joined by Rachel Arseneau. So Rachel is a developmental editor and writing instructor, specialising in crime and fantasy. Her background is anthropology and her love of fiction found a home in analysing stories to pull out patterns and strategies that help her clients write compelling plots and immersive worlds. 25 00:05:28.900 --> 00:05:48.119 Sarah @ ProWritingAid: Rachel has recently taken to studying storytelling in video games which sounds amazing and has been sharing this process live via Twitch. Okay, I need to go and look for your twitch now. But yeah, so I will hand that over to Rachel, and I think we will get going. 26 00:05:51.070 --> 00:05:55.020 Rachel Arsenault: Thanks so much, Sarah. Let me just get my screen share on here 27 00:05:56.920 --> 00:06:01.199 Rachel Arsenault: right now. You're just going to see something blink until I start this slide show. 28 00:06:02.930 --> 00:06:24.330 Rachel Arsenault: Alright, everyone welcome. Thank you so much for being here, Sarah. Thank you for that lovely introduction. Yes, my name is Rachel Arseneau. I run a little outfit called Story Cipher, and I specialize in crime and fantasy, as you've already heard, and the reason my background in anthropology is going to be relevant to you today is because 29 00:06:24.750 --> 00:06:39.599 Rachel Arsenault: this is really the background that shapes the way that I approach character development and the way that I counsel my clients in developing their characters. So let's go ahead and dive right in and talk about how to avoid 2D characters and make your world come alive. 30 00:06:40.990 --> 00:07:03.809 Rachel Arsenault: So I wanna just start by outlining the problem and kind of how how this happens and how we wind up in this situation. So of course, you have a protagonist. Right? You've done all of this work to develop your protagonist. Maybe you've given them a backstory. They have a specific occupation that affects their investigation. If they don't make a mental note that that will help you develop your protagonist 31 00:07:04.870 --> 00:07:26.450 Rachel Arsenault: and you set your protagonist on an investigation. So your protagonist comes into contact with the crime. You develop an investigation. They'll get clues. They may run into some red herrings, they will do, suspect, and witness interviews, and then by the end they get to the the truth of the crime right usually. Who did it? 32 00:07:27.380 --> 00:07:54.700 Rachel Arsenault: So you have all of these things. You spent all this time developing those elements, but then everyone else who I would categorize as your sidekicks. So think about like your Watson type, character and assistant, write any sort of immediate secondary cast. Your suspects, your witnesses and characters that I've started calling resource characters which are characters who are involved in the investigation, who are like a part of the investigation. 33 00:07:54.990 --> 00:08:09.100 Rachel Arsenault: but aren't necessarily suspects or witnesses. So this could be the officer in charge of the case. The journalist who covered the cold case, or the lady who runs the archives. All of these different characters who are meant to populate your world 34 00:08:09.180 --> 00:08:17.910 Rachel Arsenault: kind of follow along this spectrum. So either they turn into sort of these cardboard cutouts where they're just information stations for your protagonists like there's 35 00:08:17.910 --> 00:08:39.460 Rachel Arsenault: right. He went that way, or in an effort to make them distinct. You kind of pendulum swing to the other side, and they turn into caricatures. And that's not super desirable, either, right? Because in in that effort to make them distinct. They feel a little unreal, they feel a little unconvincing, and you sort of exaggerated them in an effort to make them distinct. 36 00:08:41.250 --> 00:08:52.199 Rachel Arsenault: The goal is to create characters that don't just contribute to the investigation. Right? They don't just contribute information, but they contribute to the story as a whole. 37 00:08:52.460 --> 00:09:06.410 Rachel Arsenault: Your characters are the living, breathing part of your world right? They are literally the part of your world that moves and talks. They're the part of your world that your protagonist is going to spend the most time engaging with. 38 00:09:07.280 --> 00:09:28.910 Rachel Arsenault: and those characters should add intrigue and conflict to your story. Right? Part of the excitement of a crime story is evaluating the suspects and the witnesses and determining who is trustworthy, who's lying? Who's telling the truth? Right? It's it's getting to know the different characters and trying to parse out the truth. 39 00:09:28.910 --> 00:09:53.450 Rachel Arsenault: But even other characters like your sidekicks or your resource characters, should also contribute to the experience, right they should help or hinder the protagonist in their own unique ways. So the way that I talk to my clients about this, the way that I like to think about it is you want to give to your readers the sense that this world was spinning before the reader showed up 40 00:09:53.490 --> 00:10:03.210 Rachel Arsenault: and will continue spinning after they put the book down. And it creates right. This sort of like vortex that sucks your reader in because they get 41 00:10:03.860 --> 00:10:11.490 Rachel Arsenault: sucked in to a world that has a life of its own that's moving, and people are acting and living their own lives. 42 00:10:11.760 --> 00:10:30.990 Rachel Arsenault: And you want to do that right. But the trick is to find meaningful ways to develop your characters, because you can't spend the rest of your life crafting a meticulous backstory for every single character, and cataloging their likes and dislikes. In order to create very complex, nuanced, interesting characters. 43 00:10:31.750 --> 00:10:35.929 Rachel Arsenault: So of course, the question becomes, How do we do that. And that's why we're all here today. 44 00:10:36.660 --> 00:10:45.089 Rachel Arsenault: So I want to talk. You introduce you to sort of the solution that I'm proposing for how you can develop your characters, and I want to start by 45 00:10:45.140 --> 00:11:05.259 Rachel Arsenault: helping you kind of filter what you're looking for, because your protagonist is the way your reader is going to experience your other characters right? Either your protagonist is going to interact directly with those characters or your protagonist is going to witness the interaction and behaviors of characters right kind of amongst themselves. 46 00:11:06.290 --> 00:11:20.760 Rachel Arsenault: And so what you want to start to do in order to create that distinction is, compare and contrast your characters with each other and with your protagonist. And then you're going to translate this information into behaviors. 47 00:11:21.210 --> 00:11:23.530 Rachel Arsenault: So the point here is that 48 00:11:23.900 --> 00:11:51.546 Rachel Arsenault: getting the information just getting the information is pretty interesting. I'm not gonna lie just finding this information out about your characters. Super fun, but it doesn't necessarily do anything for you if it doesn't show up on the page. And so translating this into behaviors for the protagonist or other characters to experience, is going to help you actually bring that information to light on the page. So this presentation is pretty hefty. So 49 00:11:51.910 --> 00:12:00.850 Rachel Arsenault: I want to narrow down the very soul of this presentation the absolute essence of this presentation, through which everything will be filtered 50 00:12:01.270 --> 00:12:03.160 Rachel Arsenault: in one sentence for you. 51 00:12:04.610 --> 00:12:33.690 Rachel Arsenault: What you want to do is to give your characters, opinions, and perspectives, and then showcase them through their interactions with your protagonist. Now, the trick is to give them opinions about the things that actually matter to your story. So not just any random opinions we'll do. And that's what we are going to explore through the rest of this presentation is, what are the opinions that matter what opinions are going to be relevant to your story. 52 00:12:34.460 --> 00:12:37.780 Rachel Arsenault: So I have 3 basic approaches that you can take. 53 00:12:38.610 --> 00:13:02.139 Rachel Arsenault: And I'm gonna give you some caveats, and one small warning based on some feedback I got from my husband. So number one, I just wanna let you know in advance. All of my strategies are centered on specific questions. I love using specific questions again with my clients, with myself, because I think that it's easier to show up to think through a concept 54 00:13:02.180 --> 00:13:08.620 Rachel Arsenault: and answer like answering specific questions rather than just sort of vaguely ruminating on a concept. 55 00:13:08.890 --> 00:13:17.139 Rachel Arsenault: And the reason I want you to know that is because there are going to be a lot of questions on these slides. They are chunky slides. 56 00:13:17.300 --> 00:13:34.580 Rachel Arsenault: but the good news is that these slides are available for you in the community Hub. So if you so, if you get overwhelmed, if you, you know, are like, Oh, no, I missed that question. They're on the slides. It's all good and so, because there are so many questions on these slides. 57 00:13:35.380 --> 00:14:02.118 Rachel Arsenault: I just want to encourage you to find one approach that works for you that resonates with you. You can always go back and use the other 2 approaches to add complexity. Add additional details. If there, if you start to feel like there are things that are missing about your characters, you can always go back to the other approaches, or even the other questions to help you think through this. But, 58 00:14:02.480 --> 00:14:18.730 Rachel Arsenault: My my recommendation here to prevent overwhelm is to just kind of take the questions in and just find one that feels like, Oh, man, I can start there like this is the easiest way in for me, and then you can follow that as far as it'll take you and always add in the other questions later. 59 00:14:19.340 --> 00:14:46.070 Rachel Arsenault: And if ideas start coming to you during this presentation definitely jot those down, you don't want to lose those. So this is my series of caveats and warnings about the nature of this presentation, because, I showed this presentation to my husband, and he was like Rachel. That is so many things. Those slides are humongous. But I had already sent them to pro writing aid. This presentation was already locked, and it was too late. So here we go. So with that in mind, let's go ahead and talk about what these 3 approaches are. 60 00:14:46.960 --> 00:14:56.180 Rachel Arsenault: So for formulating again perspectives and opinions for your characters, you can take the approach of asking, How do characters relate to their environment? 61 00:14:56.750 --> 00:14:59.879 Rachel Arsenault: How do characters relate to the events of the story? 62 00:15:00.000 --> 00:15:16.140 Rachel Arsenault: Or how do characters relate to the other characters in the story? Remember, all of these are about finding relevant information about your characters that you can translate into behaviors. So let's take a look at the 1st one. How do characters relate to their environment? 63 00:15:16.850 --> 00:15:40.179 Rachel Arsenault: So the thing I want you to keep in mind is that settings aren't just physical, right? They're cultural. It's not just New York City in 1995, New York City in 1995 has a very specific very specific atmosphere, very specific way that people behave a very specific way, that they do things. So I want you to think about where your story takes place, and I have just a little note here. 64 00:15:40.860 --> 00:16:07.409 Rachel Arsenault: You can use the whole setting, like, for example, New York City in 1995 or the smaller environments that are central to your story. So, for example, if you're writing a police procedural, the police station is a great place to start to kind of create this culture that all of the different characters, at least who are in the police station are living in, or if your protagonist is a lawyer, then you might focus on doing this for the court system. 65 00:16:07.410 --> 00:16:17.679 Rachel Arsenault: A phenomenal example of doing this specifically for the court system is Michael Connolly's the Lincoln lawyer. So his story takes place. I believe it's in La. 66 00:16:18.420 --> 00:16:41.889 Rachel Arsenault: which is a huge setting right? And so he really does a great job of like narrowing the context down to the court system. And that's where he has all of these different characters who play different roles, who relate to the system differently, and who behave differently inside of their roles to create this very kind of lively environment that sucks you in. And so 67 00:16:42.240 --> 00:16:56.880 Rachel Arsenault: I find that this is one of the easiest places to start is those smaller central settings, so that you're not trying to think about this whole giant setting. And then you're like, oh, what is the culture of this setting but thinking of smaller environments in your story? 68 00:16:57.960 --> 00:17:18.079 Rachel Arsenault: And then you can start to ask, how are your characters shaped by the environment they are in? How does their environment shape their perspectives? Right? So how do people in this environment behave? Do they use insider language? Do they have a common vernacular or specific practices that they share in? Are they protective of their environment? 69 00:17:18.740 --> 00:17:39.230 Rachel Arsenault: And one of the easiest places to kind of find your way into this, because I think it's like the broadest category is who are the insiders and who are the outsiders in this environment. And then you can sort of ask the sub question, who's trying to get in right? Who's trying to fit in? If it's for example, if you're in the police station. 70 00:17:39.750 --> 00:17:45.429 Rachel Arsenault: do you have a rookie detective who's trying to be? You know, one of the guys are trying to fit into the environment. 71 00:17:45.460 --> 00:18:02.809 Rachel Arsenault: And who's trying to get out. So is there someone who knows the police station is corrupt and they're trying to, you know. Leave the work? Are they trying to get out of the job? Are they desperate to retire right? So thinking about who's already inside and outside, and who's trying to make moves right inside or outside. 72 00:18:02.920 --> 00:18:09.139 Rachel Arsenault: So this is where your brainstorming is going to live. This is where you're pulling information about your characters 73 00:18:09.700 --> 00:18:17.770 Rachel Arsenault: to translate this into specific behaviors, then you can follow that up. So you take that information, and then you start asking this question. 74 00:18:17.910 --> 00:18:22.790 Rachel Arsenault: how is this similar to, or different from your protagonist. 75 00:18:22.800 --> 00:18:29.479 Rachel Arsenault: How do the characters treat your protagonists in light of this or right? How do they treat each other in light of this 76 00:18:30.460 --> 00:18:44.029 Rachel Arsenault: so phenomenal example of this. So if the Lincoln lawyer, is an example of the the smaller environment in the court system, an example of a whole setting would be Wind Gap from sharp objects by Gillian Flynn. 77 00:18:45.010 --> 00:18:51.539 Rachel Arsenault: Holy Cow Wind Gap is an insider town, right? So Wind Gap is a small town. 78 00:18:51.550 --> 00:19:02.979 Rachel Arsenault: and the way that Wind Gap. The the culture of Wind Gap is you live here and you die here. You don't leave Wind Gap, because if you leave Wind Gap you're low key, a trader, right? 79 00:19:03.220 --> 00:19:09.370 Rachel Arsenault: And so our protagonist left Wind Gap. So she is now an outsider, and everybody 80 00:19:09.460 --> 00:19:12.530 Rachel Arsenault: most everybody treats her like it. She has a few 81 00:19:12.580 --> 00:19:35.499 Rachel Arsenault: friends. You only have friends and quotations and Wind Gap. But she has a few friends who she is able to kind of come back to. But the the way that Wind Gap works is that insiders antagonize outsiders because it's such a small town that everybody knows who the insiders and outsiders are like. The outsiders are so obvious because the insiders have been there the whole time, and the outsiders have not. 82 00:19:36.650 --> 00:20:01.650 Rachel Arsenault: So what happens is A Kansas City detective named Richard is called into the called into Wingap to investigate the murders that are taking place, and the people treat him. Camille Praker, our protagonist witnesses the people treating Richard like an outsider. So this is right where she witnesses the way that other characters are interacting. Even the police chief of the town 83 00:20:01.660 --> 00:20:25.604 Rachel Arsenault: really treats Richard with resentment because he's an outsider, and he feels like, Oh, big Kansas City detective trying to get in on my turf. And Camille witnesses those interactions. But then, because Camille perceives herself also as an outsider, it forms a basis of connection between her and Richard, and so it gives them a place to begin 84 00:20:26.570 --> 00:20:48.750 Rachel Arsenault: getting to know each other and connecting because they're gonna start working the case together, and that both of them being outsiders gives them kind of a frame of reference for one another, except because Camille was a former insider. She is able to kind of tell Richard some of the secrets of Wind Gap. And so it starts to shape the way they interact with each other. 85 00:20:50.780 --> 00:21:07.930 Rachel Arsenault: So the second approach that we can take is looking at how characters relate to the events of the story. So it's a well established fact that people have different opinions and perspectives of the same event, and it's a well documented phenomenon that 86 00:21:08.510 --> 00:21:25.429 Rachel Arsenault: eyewitnesses of the exact same event will have a different memory of that event. They'll have a different perception. They'll have a different perspective on that event, and you want to treat your suspects and witnesses, and maybe even your side characters in the same way. 87 00:21:26.350 --> 00:21:50.289 Rachel Arsenault: And so what you wanna do is think about the major events in your story. And just for the record your crime should probably be at the very top of this list. Now, this could be like story, wide events. This could also be protagonist specific events. So, for example, in The Girl with the dragon tattoo, Michael Blunkvist, our protagonist, is found guilty of libel. 88 00:21:50.950 --> 00:22:01.759 Rachel Arsenault: and this protagonist specific event will impact the way that the other characters interact with him. And so what you want to think about is. 89 00:22:02.310 --> 00:22:10.060 Rachel Arsenault: I like to think about it really in kind of concentric circles, right? So which characters were impacted by those events. 90 00:22:10.080 --> 00:22:14.339 Rachel Arsenault: And then you can also ask how they were specifically impacted by those events. 91 00:22:15.140 --> 00:22:40.129 Rachel Arsenault: And then one, you know, you could say one circle further out would be which characters know about those events, so they weren't maybe directly impacted. But they know about them. I promise you, people who aren't directly impacted but know about an event, have an opinion about that event. If you've ever been on social media or in the comments of literally anything, you know that people who are not impacted by stuff will still have opinions on that thing right? And so even characters who simply 92 00:22:40.130 --> 00:22:57.139 Rachel Arsenault: know about the events will probably form opinions on them. And so you kind of have these 2 concentric circles. And then you can start to ask about what do these characters think about these events? So what do they think about the crime? What do they think about the scandal that your protagonist was maybe embroiled in? 93 00:22:57.320 --> 00:23:01.829 Rachel Arsenault: And another question that I really like to ask is like, who do they hold responsible? 94 00:23:02.430 --> 00:23:27.680 Rachel Arsenault: So if everybody kind of forms these opinions about the events that take place, they may also have a perspective on like. Oh, this wouldn't have happened if or this person is responsible, or this person's irresponsibility caused this event to take place. So you can start to think about how different characters were impacted and what their perspective on the event is, because 95 00:23:28.090 --> 00:23:35.999 Rachel Arsenault: when your protagonist comes with questions that is going to help you determine what your characters tell the protagonist 96 00:23:36.010 --> 00:23:46.549 Rachel Arsenault: and or what they focus on specifically right, what they think is the most relevant, what they want. The protagonist to know again. What? What information they prioritize. 97 00:23:47.250 --> 00:23:53.799 Rachel Arsenault: So a really again going back to sharp objects in particular. So Adora Camille's mom. 98 00:23:54.180 --> 00:24:16.200 Rachel Arsenault: her daughter wasn't murdered right? Her daughter's still alive. But Adora, so Adora is. She knows about the events. But she wasn't directly impacted the way that the families were impacted. Right? So the families of the girls who were murdered are going to be in that 1st concentric circle. They were the most directly impacted, and we see that in the way that they engage Camille when she comes with questions. 99 00:24:16.370 --> 00:24:22.220 Rachel Arsenault: Now, if we go one concentric circle out, Adora knows about the events. 100 00:24:22.230 --> 00:24:48.589 Rachel Arsenault: but what's interesting is that she takes kind of. She has, like a disproportionate reaction to these events, and it really promotes some intrigue in this story, because Adora, whose daughter is daughters, are still alive, and oh! And wasn't as impacted as the families. She takes this exaggerated response where she is just like, Oh, my gosh, those poor girls! I just can't stop thinking about it. And what we learn, what we kind of see happen 101 00:24:49.310 --> 00:25:18.100 Rachel Arsenault: is that Adora takes any opportunity to get attention and she'll direct it right back to herself. And this is kind of a phenomenon that starts to get built out over the course of the story, that you begin to see that this you get an explanation. You kind of come to the truth of this. Really, it's it's an off putting behavior like watching her behave in this way is so strange, right? And it again, it causes the the reader to lean in and be like 102 00:25:18.400 --> 00:25:35.179 Rachel Arsenault: what is going on. What is this lady's deal right? And that's what you want, right? You want your reader to be asking questions about the crime, about the suspects, about the witnesses, about all the different characters, and because when they start asking questions, so when they start leaning in. 103 00:25:36.740 --> 00:25:42.709 Rachel Arsenault: so the final approach that we can take. And I think this is like the super super fun. One. 104 00:25:42.810 --> 00:25:49.310 Rachel Arsenault: How your characters relate to the other characters in the story. So 105 00:25:50.490 --> 00:26:00.540 Rachel Arsenault: operating, premise right again, if you've ever been around a human person. You know this to be true. People have different and often strong opinions about each other. 106 00:26:00.810 --> 00:26:07.629 Rachel Arsenault: And this is this is so fun, because this is like where the T lives in your story, right? This is where the gossip lives. 107 00:26:09.210 --> 00:26:23.110 Rachel Arsenault: This is where it can really get complicated and exciting, because this is where people start sharing what they know or what they think about other people. And there are questions about whether that information is or isn't true. 108 00:26:24.590 --> 00:26:25.670 Rachel Arsenault: So 109 00:26:26.410 --> 00:26:43.070 Rachel Arsenault: think about the different characters in your story. And I would say, foremost, start by thinking about what other characters think about your protagonist, because, again, that's going to directly impact the way that they interact with your protagonists, right? Based on what they think about them. 110 00:26:43.730 --> 00:26:54.559 Rachel Arsenault: Now, your characters might know your protagonists. Either they already know your protagonist. They've already formed an opinion about them. They might know your protagonist through their reputation. 111 00:26:54.560 --> 00:27:21.949 Rachel Arsenault: or they might be if they're meeting your protagonist for the 1st time. They're sort of actively forming an opinion about your protagonist as they're interacting with your protagonist. So think about whether your protagonist comes on too strong, or perhaps accidentally commits a faux right? That's going to cause the other characters to begin to form an opinion of the protagonist and interact with them on the basis of that opinion. 112 00:27:22.910 --> 00:27:37.360 Rachel Arsenault: Now, another thing that I really like to do, and this is kind of a callback to that earlier slide, right when I said your protagonist should have a job, and that Job should affect the way that they are able to do their investigation. 113 00:27:37.860 --> 00:27:46.609 Rachel Arsenault: you can also think about what other characters think about your protagonist line of work. So Mickey Holler, in the Lincoln lawyer. 114 00:27:46.710 --> 00:28:02.549 Rachel Arsenault: he's a defense attorney, and let me tell you, people have some real strong opinions about defense attorneys and the type of work that they do, and they treat Mickey like it when they know that he's a defense attorney. They treat him in a very specific way. 115 00:28:03.190 --> 00:28:12.219 Rachel Arsenault: and on the Flip side, so, like, you know, police officers treat Mickey in a very specific way. But then, criminals who are like this guy is the guy to have? 116 00:28:12.240 --> 00:28:18.170 Rachel Arsenault: They're going to treat him a lot differently than the police officers who are like, man. You're working for the wrong team. 117 00:28:19.640 --> 00:28:24.639 Rachel Arsenault: So that's that's the place I'd like to start. I think it's again the easiest way in. 118 00:28:25.380 --> 00:28:48.110 Rachel Arsenault: But then you can also start to think about what your characters right, are thinking about what the interrelationships are between characters. Again, that your protagonist may witness or learn about through their interactions as they begin to talk, to suspects and witnesses. So one great question to ask is, who do your characters think is responsible for the crime. If they know about a crime 119 00:28:48.340 --> 00:28:57.289 Rachel Arsenault: they've there's a high likelihood that they have an opinion who did it. So going back to sharp objects right when Camille comes around with questions. 120 00:28:57.800 --> 00:29:06.969 Rachel Arsenault: The people in Wind Gap. They have 2 theories that it's they're sort of broken up into 2 theories. One is that some random hitchhiker was coming through town, and he did it. 121 00:29:07.320 --> 00:29:20.589 Rachel Arsenault: or the guy who just moved to town. The most recent addition, ie. The outsider, is the guy who did it right. They're very quick to point the finger at the guy who hasn't lived here as long as everybody else. 122 00:29:21.260 --> 00:29:33.710 Rachel Arsenault: and so when Camille asks them questions. They begin to give her information based on their opinions of the events of who's responsible for the events based on what they think about the other characters. And again. 123 00:29:33.740 --> 00:29:44.190 Rachel Arsenault: there's probably no, I've never seen a secondary cast as opinionated as the people in Wind Gap are. So they're just. It's a phenomenal example of this. 124 00:29:44.600 --> 00:29:53.400 Rachel Arsenault: And then the other thing that you can think about is what kind of gossip is happening among your suspects, witnesses, or even your resource characters. 125 00:29:54.100 --> 00:30:01.760 Rachel Arsenault: because this is where your protagonists can start to learn about things like motive, right where there are rivalries or antagonisms. 126 00:30:01.890 --> 00:30:23.559 Rachel Arsenault: But then you can start sorting through it and ask what's actually true and what isn't, because a piece of gossip, that's true, could lead your protagonist to their next clue right? It could give them a follow up direction to take their investigation, because now they're like, Oh, we're these 2 people having an affair that sounds like motive. They can follow that up. 127 00:30:23.840 --> 00:30:34.680 Rachel Arsenault: But if they're given information that is simply gossip, or isn't true, or is, you know, perhaps actually an active act of antagonism from one character to another. 128 00:30:35.470 --> 00:30:51.750 Rachel Arsenault: It could mislead your protagonist away from the truth of the crime and toward a red herring or down sort of like a false trail that they're going to have to bounce back from once they inevitably find out there was actually nothing in that thing that they were just chasing down. 129 00:30:53.060 --> 00:30:54.219 Rachel Arsenault: And so 130 00:30:54.330 --> 00:31:04.959 Rachel Arsenault: you want to collect all of this information about what your characters think about each other, what they think about your protagonist, what they think about what your protagonist does for a living. 131 00:31:05.950 --> 00:31:09.619 Rachel Arsenault: and then to translate that into behaviors on the page. 132 00:31:09.630 --> 00:31:25.160 Rachel Arsenault: Then you can ask when the protagonist comes with questions, and your protagonist will come with questions. What do the other characters have to say about each other? And there is a veritable mine of information that you can pull out 133 00:31:25.300 --> 00:31:29.919 Rachel Arsenault: about your characters and about the investigation through this lens 134 00:31:31.030 --> 00:31:34.029 Rachel Arsenault: and the the again, the goal here 135 00:31:34.090 --> 00:31:46.200 Rachel Arsenault: is for these interactions to create obstacles as well as opportunities for your protagonist. So I wanna before we move on, I just wanna talk a little bit about 136 00:31:46.280 --> 00:31:49.489 Rachel Arsenault: more about sharp objects. Could you guys tell? I like sharp objects. 137 00:31:49.510 --> 00:31:52.949 Rachel Arsenault: such a good book. And, by the way, the Hbo miniseries 138 00:31:53.000 --> 00:32:03.209 Rachel Arsenault: was phenomenal. It was such a great book adaptation, and you and I both know that's not always a guarantee but something that was really effective in this story 139 00:32:04.080 --> 00:32:20.119 Rachel Arsenault: is so Camille Praker again our protagonist. She's a journalist. She gets sent back to Wind Gap on assignment to investigate and report on these murders that are happening to these sort of sort of teenage girls like ages 12 to 14, 140 00:32:21.180 --> 00:32:28.759 Rachel Arsenault: and so she comes asking questions and she gets I'll I would sort it into 2 basic responses. 141 00:32:29.050 --> 00:32:58.660 Rachel Arsenault: She gets people who are like, Oh, how awful of you to come into our nice town and go digging through our dirty laundry and reporting on it to your big city newspaper and making us look bad right, and they won't talk to her, or they're very antagonistic. They give her very little information right? They'll kind of. They rebuff her because they feel like. Ew, you're bringing your nasty journalist, you know, writing your notes again to make our town look bad gross 142 00:32:59.900 --> 00:33:05.919 Rachel Arsenault: on the Flip side. You have some opportunists, and I think the opportunists are the ones that are the most fun. 143 00:33:06.500 --> 00:33:13.889 Rachel Arsenault: So Camille Praker comes through, and she's a journalist with questions, and there are few people who are really eager to talk to her. 144 00:33:14.040 --> 00:33:29.959 Rachel Arsenault: not because they have anything useful to say, but because she's a journalist, and they're like this is my ticket to getting my name in the paper. Hell, yeah, right? And so then they what will happen is, people will number one take up her time 145 00:33:30.110 --> 00:33:36.899 Rachel Arsenault: and give her no useful information. So what becomes an opportunity quickly kind of devolves into an obstacle. 146 00:33:37.410 --> 00:33:47.649 Rachel Arsenault: or they'll give her. They'll talk to her in these really unusual ways. So they'll start talking in ways that normal people don't just talk in conversation. 147 00:33:47.750 --> 00:33:53.520 Rachel Arsenault: And what begins to happen is you begin to see that they're trying to get a quote in the paper. 148 00:33:54.220 --> 00:34:15.829 Rachel Arsenault: And so they'll start saying things in really obscure ways, organizing weird language. And you start to see that they're again trying to. They're trying to get a quote. They're hoping they're gonna get their name in the paper. Some of them have kind of useful information. But a lot of them are like useless right? And again, they're just kind of prattling on about something because they're hoping that this is gonna be 149 00:34:16.030 --> 00:34:29.549 Rachel Arsenault: their big break right 1st or 15 min of fame. And so it's so you can see how Camille, because she's a journalist, and because people have a very specific opinion about her work as a journalist. 150 00:34:30.550 --> 00:34:38.960 Rachel Arsenault: it starts to create those obstacles and those opportunities as she's trying to investigate and find the truth of the case. 151 00:34:39.960 --> 00:34:40.860 Rachel Arsenault: Okay. 152 00:34:41.620 --> 00:34:44.469 Rachel Arsenault: that was many things and many questions. 153 00:34:44.679 --> 00:34:46.190 Rachel Arsenault: And I'm going to tell you right now. 154 00:34:46.690 --> 00:34:49.880 Rachel Arsenault: there's more questions. So 155 00:34:50.320 --> 00:35:01.850 Rachel Arsenault: as I said, so kind of broken these down into right. You're brainstorming. And then those bolded questions are like, Okay, once you have this information, here's how you translate it into behaviors on the page. 156 00:35:02.440 --> 00:35:13.669 Rachel Arsenault: Now, I want to take a second to sort of synthesize this as a whole, just to kind of wrap up and give you some final questions that you can ask yourself again as if you didn't already have enough. 157 00:35:14.220 --> 00:35:24.090 Rachel Arsenault: So remember that the goal here is that this information should illuminate the way each character interacts with the protagonist. 158 00:35:24.840 --> 00:35:34.489 Rachel Arsenault: So what you should be beginning to discover is where there's conflict conflict and where there's confluence among your characters and the protagonist 159 00:35:36.210 --> 00:36:04.520 Rachel Arsenault: oops. That's not my button. There we go. So you've done all of this brainstorming work. You've collected all of this information about your characters, and then you wanna take your answers to these questions and ask, how does this cause each character to interact with the protagonist? This is how you make your characters shine on the page. It's in their dialogue, it's in their behaviors, right? It's the way they talk. It's what they say, and it's how they behave. 160 00:36:05.270 --> 00:36:24.639 Rachel Arsenault: because this information again, I think it's super interesting to find all these things out about a character, but it doesn't do you a whole lot of good if it isn't promoting that conflict and that intrigue. As each character uniquely engages your protagonists. Right? That's where you're gonna begin to get those that distinction among characters. 161 00:36:26.080 --> 00:36:48.242 Rachel Arsenault: So your your final synthesis questions. I know I every time I go through the slot the these slides. I'm like, good God! That's so many questions. There's just a few more, I promise. These are the final questions. So here's some final synthesizing questions you can ask yourself, and that's why you remember that caveat I gave you at the beginning of this presentation. And I was like, remember, you're gonna have the slides. There's gonna be a replay. 162 00:36:48.900 --> 00:37:01.519 Rachel Arsenault: that's why. And that's why the slides are also so hefty cause I did want you to have all of the questions you can refer back to them. So some final questions. You can ask yourself about this information that you've collected to translate it onto the page. 163 00:37:01.860 --> 00:37:03.860 Rachel Arsenault: How will these characters behave? 164 00:37:04.360 --> 00:37:12.190 Rachel Arsenault: What does this information tell you about the information that individual characters might focus on or even be willing to share. 165 00:37:12.990 --> 00:37:29.809 Rachel Arsenault: And then how do these interactions help or hinder your protagonist investigation? And that's so important. Because, remember this, you're still telling a crime story. It's still about finding the truth still, about illuminating. You know the the truth of what happened, uncovering the conspiracy, finding the killer. 166 00:37:30.600 --> 00:38:00.199 Rachel Arsenault: And so for these interactions to actually serve the story for these characters to actually serve the story right, they should impact in some way the protagonist investigation. And that's the final one that I really want you to hang on to. It's like all of these things should serve to illuminate your protagonist investigation. And again, right, offer that conflict, or offer those opportunities for your protagonist in their investigation. Specifically 167 00:38:01.020 --> 00:38:06.412 Rachel Arsenault: so for further study. This is just a recommendation. This is kind of just for fun. 168 00:38:07.040 --> 00:38:10.120 Rachel Arsenault: because this is my favorite part of my work with my clients. 169 00:38:10.700 --> 00:38:12.609 Rachel Arsenault: One of my favorite things to do 170 00:38:13.960 --> 00:38:25.589 Rachel Arsenault: is to study great crime stories and see how authors pulled off their story. So if you want to just kind of dig more into this and explore this topic further. 171 00:38:25.810 --> 00:38:50.070 Rachel Arsenault: I I would recommend reading or watching sharp objects. Again, the Mini series on is on Hbo, and it's fantastic. Or you can just choose your favorite crime. Novel doesn't have to be sharp objects. I like it, but you can always choose another one and then read or watch through it 1st for the experience, so just enjoy the story, just lean into it and experience it as a viewer or a reader. 172 00:38:50.130 --> 00:38:56.770 Rachel Arsenault: Then go back through that story a second time, and just start like, have these questions in the back of your mind 173 00:38:57.630 --> 00:38:59.669 Rachel Arsenault: to start seeing 174 00:38:59.780 --> 00:39:28.600 Rachel Arsenault: how each of these approaches can, is, is sort of illuminating who these different characters are, and seeing the way that those behaviors are coming out on the page, so that you just kind of can start to really see these things in action, and it can start to inspire your own stories and help you generate ideas for your crime novel. So I do have a workbook. It says, worksheet. I meant workbook. But I do have a workbook on my website. Just that is based on this 175 00:39:28.600 --> 00:39:46.053 Rachel Arsenault: specific presentation. That's just sort of like a simplified version of this presentation, where you can kind of start to interact with it and fill it out. And you can find that@www.story cipher dot me if you are interested in doing a little bit more character development. If you're interested in 176 00:39:46.360 --> 00:40:00.289 Rachel Arsenault: having a little resource to help you do that. That's where you can find that. So thank you guys for being here. Thank you for hanging through my questions, and now I would love to open it up so you can ask me some questions. 177 00:40:01.410 --> 00:40:11.630 Sarah @ ProWritingAid: That was amazing. Thank you so much, Rachel. That was a lot to consume. I've been like making notes on everything, and it's just so 178 00:40:11.630 --> 00:40:36.440 Sarah @ ProWritingAid: so good to have, like a really methodical way of going through and and figuring out how to make the characters a lot less 2D. And and seeing the interactions is one of the best things in in a lot of novels as well. So I completely agree with you there. And it looks like everyone is also loving your presentation in the chat. So let's have a look at the QA. We only have. We've got a few at the moment. 179 00:40:36.440 --> 00:41:00.370 Sarah @ ProWritingAid: but I anticipate a lot more. I think the chat was a little bit quiet, because everyone was making notes on everything that you were saying, so that was, Yeah, that was really cool. And then, like, I say, if we don't get round to your question, we do have a bit of time. So it looks like we might get through a decent amount. But if we don't, then unfortunately 180 00:41:00.981 --> 00:41:14.790 Sarah @ ProWritingAid: that's it. That is the case. With some of these. So let's see what we've got so the 1st one that I can see looks like it's from. 181 00:41:15.320 --> 00:41:38.099 Sarah @ ProWritingAid: Let's see, Carly, let's look at Carly's 1. So how would you go about showing, not telling a character's personality through their body, language, and mannerisms within the narrative, to avoid page long conversations with floating heads. So I think that's really interesting in terms of like interactions and trying to show their their personality through body language and mannerisms. What do you think. 182 00:41:39.300 --> 00:41:48.240 Rachel Arsenault: Yeah, I think that so just off the top of my head, I would I would offer a couple of things that you can do. Number one. 183 00:41:48.690 --> 00:42:04.029 Rachel Arsenault: There's the concept of narrative summary right where you kind of collapse down information into a brief summary. So in order to sort of like pair down some of that dialogue. If there's anything your reader has already seen or heard or knows about. 184 00:42:04.090 --> 00:42:19.880 Rachel Arsenault: collapse that down, let it be a summary right. The the officer told her about XY. And Z. And you can always kind of flesh that out like in a second draft, you know. But you know, if your if your author is already, or if your author, if your audience has already seen that happen. 185 00:42:19.880 --> 00:42:44.540 Rachel Arsenault: they don't need a rehash of it. And so that's 1 way that you can start just so that you can focus on the dialogue that matters right? So the things that they say. And then you can use sort of like. Are they shrugging? Are they scowling? Are they turning away? And you can think about some of those subtle body language cues to help communicate that but just specifically because you mentioned, like, you know, having like pages, long dialogue where you're like. 186 00:42:44.540 --> 00:42:54.170 Rachel Arsenault: let me show you everything about the character. I would whittle it down to the most important case. Information to treat in dialogues the things that are most important to your story 187 00:42:54.500 --> 00:42:59.039 Rachel Arsenault: treat those in dialogue, and include those mannerisms in that body language 188 00:42:59.130 --> 00:43:01.360 Rachel Arsenault: there and then 189 00:43:01.920 --> 00:43:10.589 Rachel Arsenault: be be generous with your use of summary, and again, you can always go back and expand it out if you find that you summarize too much. And now the dialogue's too short. 190 00:43:11.110 --> 00:43:11.850 Sarah @ ProWritingAid: Sounds great. 191 00:43:12.410 --> 00:43:28.989 Sarah @ ProWritingAid: awesome. Okay? This next one's quite interesting so Nelly said. Would you advise adjusting characters when a crime novel is translated into another language. Now it's a little bit slightly off topic, but I thought it. It would be worth asking just in case you had any thoughts on that one. 192 00:43:29.580 --> 00:43:33.200 Rachel Arsenault: Yeah, so you said the question was about adjusting characters. If. 193 00:43:33.200 --> 00:43:33.740 Sarah @ ProWritingAid: Yeah. 194 00:43:33.740 --> 00:43:34.160 Rachel Arsenault: Slated. 195 00:43:34.160 --> 00:43:38.070 Sarah @ ProWritingAid: Yeah, so I guess for the culture, maybe. 196 00:43:39.290 --> 00:43:55.189 Rachel Arsenault: Yeah, I think so. That would probably be something that you would want to like have treated with whoever is translating your work. So you're in that case, you probably want a good translator who has a strong understanding of where the 197 00:43:55.483 --> 00:44:19.260 Rachel Arsenault: like, you know which language you're starting it, and which language you're going into, where you may insert. I I wouldn't recommend changing the characters necessarily. But that's a like when you have to start translating kind of cultural norms or idioms, or something like that. That's really, I think the you're the person doing the translating is the one who's gonna be the most helpful for that. To, you know, maybe add explanatory notes. It may be depending on 198 00:44:19.260 --> 00:44:20.680 Rachel Arsenault: you're translating to 199 00:44:20.680 --> 00:44:41.720 Rachel Arsenault: this. This might turn into a footnote issue. Translation is not my specialty. So I'm just sort of like, this is what I would suggest someone do, knowing that it's I don't actively do translation, but it wouldn't think that changing the characters themselves would be the way to go, but rather working closely with the translator to make sure that those things get properly communicated in the language that it's getting translated to. 200 00:44:41.720 --> 00:45:05.179 Sarah @ ProWritingAid: Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Sorry. I just thought you might have some thoughts on that one. Okay, Daki. So I've got an anonymous question saying, Is there a rule or guideline to resource characters who pop up give information but disappear as they don't manipulate the story much? Or should everyone who appears to provide information have a 201 00:45:05.180 --> 00:45:14.980 Sarah @ ProWritingAid: like overall presence, so should they be there all the time in some fashion? Is there a way or rule to properly going about it. So I guess, like if people pop in to give 202 00:45:15.290 --> 00:45:19.349 Sarah @ ProWritingAid: clues or red herrings, maybe something like that. 203 00:45:20.140 --> 00:45:37.421 Rachel Arsenault: Yeah, I you know, in that case, thinking about that, I would honestly, especially just really, for your own sanity, I would organize your characters by most important to least important, like, even just make a mental list. So really, if it's a resource character, who's there for like 8 seconds, and then they're literally never gonna show up again. 204 00:45:38.070 --> 00:46:04.729 Rachel Arsenault: that's someone that you can probably spend a little less time developing or give them, you know, just like one little thing where, like again, they're if they're the desk sergeant at the front of the police station. Maybe they're they're either super nice or they're pretty grumpy, or they, you know, are trying to slack off, and the protagonist is interrupting them, you know, slacking off something like that is, you know, you can do that with sort of like, the most minimal amount of information. So that way, you're spending 205 00:46:04.820 --> 00:46:21.730 Rachel Arsenault: most of your time on the most important characters. That's gonna be your your main secondary characters and your suspects and witnesses. Those are. Gonna be your like the place you want to spend the most time, and then everyone else. Just add a little flavor, use one or 2 of those questions, and just give them a little 206 00:46:21.770 --> 00:46:35.349 Rachel Arsenault: little. Possess, you know, a little spice, some something to kind of hang on to. But if they're and and be careful if you have like resource characters who like Pop in, who are like just there and then gone again. 207 00:46:35.510 --> 00:47:00.210 Rachel Arsenault: The only thing I would counsel there is specifically, just make sure you don't do that with too many characters. Because also, if you're doing a crime, and you want to do like a series. Oh, my God! Those resource characters make for amazing recurring characters. And so you can continue to develop them. And so that way the audience looks forward to meeting them book after book, cause they're like, Oh, my God! This is that grumpy corner. I love that guy like he's hilarious, you know. 208 00:47:00.578 --> 00:47:06.110 Rachel Arsenault: And you can use that also as something that drives your readers toward like in 209 00:47:06.410 --> 00:47:25.830 Rachel Arsenault: toward being interested in future books in in the series. So that's so. Don't have too many of those characters who like appear once and are gone. If you do have a couple of them don't spend too much time on them. But then, if there's series opportunity there really lean into finding those characters who are sort of worthy of being those recurring characters. 210 00:47:26.390 --> 00:47:35.040 Sarah @ ProWritingAid: Awesome. I I really like that brilliant stuff. Okay, let me see. 211 00:47:35.465 --> 00:48:01.309 Sarah @ ProWritingAid: Oh, Lou has asked quite a good question. Actually, it's not specifically about characters, but it is about the questions. So if we have questions when we're working through all of these wonderful resources, can we? And how should we be able to reach you? So if people want to ask you questions about your freebies and and this session, and anything else to do with character development. Then? Yeah, how should they get in touch. 212 00:48:01.850 --> 00:48:13.369 Rachel Arsenault: Yeah, that's a great question. So you can. I have a contact form on my website? And I'll also say, so. This is not fully. This hasn't been fully actualized. But you can actually find 213 00:48:13.440 --> 00:48:35.019 Rachel Arsenault: this. It feels so weird to like plug for this. But it's about to happen. So you can find me streaming. Live on twitch. Now, mostly, it really is my project on video games. But I will start hosting office hours. Just to field questions and hang out with people who wanna talk about writing so I'll start announcing that like on my email list, but if you wanna pop by and ask a question. 214 00:48:35.020 --> 00:48:48.839 Rachel Arsenault: you can actually find me on twitch and in the middle of me playing a video game. I will, you know, do my best to answer your question. You can just sort of hang out with me a little bit. Live there. If you're not bothered to be on twitch in a video game scenario and with me 215 00:48:49.150 --> 00:48:54.359 Rachel Arsenault: panicking frequently on camera as I try to play a game I've never played before. 216 00:48:54.660 --> 00:49:02.950 Sarah @ ProWritingAid: I love that. I dipped my toe in streaming video games a couple of years ago. So I know how that feels. 217 00:49:02.950 --> 00:49:06.609 Rachel Arsenault: Wait. Okay, I not to derail too much. But do you stream regularly still. 218 00:49:06.610 --> 00:49:07.922 Sarah @ ProWritingAid: No not anymore. 219 00:49:08.360 --> 00:49:11.389 Rachel Arsenault: Okay. Okay. Cause I was like, I wanna follow you on twitch. This is amazing. 220 00:49:11.390 --> 00:49:26.510 Sarah @ ProWritingAid: Yeah, no, but I know I know what you mean. It's a it's a lot of a lot of trying to. Yeah, get to know new games and things like that. So yeah, awesome. Alright, and it looks like Lou said, that's amazing. Would love that. And they love twitch. So they're gonna they're gonna find. 221 00:49:26.510 --> 00:49:27.010 Rachel Arsenault: Yes. 222 00:49:27.010 --> 00:49:42.230 Sarah @ ProWritingAid: Those things. Okay? And then we've got a question from Eva, and it says how to show the relationship between the narrator and the main character. That's not an active part of the novel. So it's just brackets. The other person is missing. 223 00:49:42.300 --> 00:49:45.190 Sarah @ ProWritingAid: That's a really interesting question. 224 00:49:45.200 --> 00:49:51.179 Sarah @ ProWritingAid: I I hope I'm getting that right because I'm not 100% sure, I've read it out correctly. 225 00:49:51.547 --> 00:49:57.349 Sarah @ ProWritingAid: So I don't know if you want to have a look at the QA. And see if you read it, and see how you interpret that one. 226 00:49:57.570 --> 00:49:59.000 Rachel Arsenault: Yeah, let me take a 227 00:49:59.550 --> 00:50:17.710 Rachel Arsenault: let's see. Okay, how to show the relation between the narrator and a main character that is not actively part of the not the other person is missing. Okay? So oh, okay, okay, so not the relation between the narrator, the protagonist, but a main character. The person who's missing. So the way that you're gonna do that 228 00:50:18.310 --> 00:50:44.070 Rachel Arsenault: number one is gonna be through the way that the narrator talks about that person right? Though, if you think about like, think about if you have talked to someone, and there's like a person that they hate versus the way that they talk about like, even if you go like the forestroom, like their dog, that they love right like the kind of language you use when you talk about that person or your pet is gonna vary depending on how you feel about them. So if this 229 00:50:44.070 --> 00:50:55.489 Rachel Arsenault: missing person is an absolute pain and they hate them. They're gonna be resenting the search for this partnership because they're like, Oh, my God! They were already annoying. I already didn't like them. And now I have to spend my time doing this 230 00:50:55.490 --> 00:51:11.260 Rachel Arsenault: right. That tells you something versus like I miss them right, I miss, you know, waking up next to her every morning, or the way that they right. The language that they use about that person is going to communicate a lot. Now you can I? I would 231 00:51:11.270 --> 00:51:30.120 Rachel Arsenault: I would be careful with like flashbacks, right? Because it's easy to be like. You can be kind of like Corny with your flashbacks, so I wouldn't rely like Super, heavily on flashbacks, unless you're sort of doing like a dual narrative thing where we're like watching things unfold in real time. But then you kind of have these flashbacks where the the 232 00:51:30.120 --> 00:51:41.489 Rachel Arsenault: story preceding the present day is unfolding along the way. So unless you're doing that, be kind of careful with your flashbacks, but flashbacks are a way that you can do that. 233 00:51:42.510 --> 00:51:43.240 Sarah @ ProWritingAid: Stuff. 234 00:51:43.877 --> 00:51:56.042 Sarah @ ProWritingAid: We have another anonymous question, which is, how do you make the villain? Not a cardboard character without giving him slash her away. I mean, that's that's a big question for crime, in my opinion. 235 00:51:56.380 --> 00:51:58.555 Rachel Arsenault: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. 236 00:51:59.360 --> 00:52:11.409 Rachel Arsenault: I think. So you wanna think about so they they will have these perspectives. And they will have these opinions on things. And so you know, their opinion on the protagonist is gonna be really helpful, because the way they 237 00:52:11.480 --> 00:52:23.079 Rachel Arsenault: think about the protagonist is, you know, once the protagonist comes into contact with them. They're gonna behave in a certain way. But I think thinking about their strategy for obscuring their crime right? So like 238 00:52:23.690 --> 00:52:28.154 Rachel Arsenault: one really good example. So in the Silkworm, by Robert Galbraith. 239 00:52:28.960 --> 00:52:35.779 Rachel Arsenault: the the villain is quite useful, right? And they play a very. 240 00:52:35.780 --> 00:52:59.380 Rachel Arsenault: They play a very active part in answering the detectives questions, and they're very they see they come across as being very open, right? But that's actually the means by which they obscure their involvement in the crime. So thinking about. So you still kind of form these things. But then for the villain I would think about like, what's their strategy for throwing the protagonist off of their scent. Right? How do they sort of 241 00:52:59.380 --> 00:53:05.550 Rachel Arsenault: keep themselves out of the protagonist like line of vision, without 242 00:53:06.190 --> 00:53:14.240 Rachel Arsenault: like leaving the country right running away, escaping. And and what are like that particular strategy? That's how I would approach the villain in particular. 243 00:53:14.980 --> 00:53:31.849 Sarah @ ProWritingAid: Awesome. That's brilliant. I have another one from this one's from Rebecca. And they say, do you recommend 1st person point of view or 3rd person. To best show how characters are interacting with the protagonists. 244 00:53:33.677 --> 00:53:42.892 Rachel Arsenault: That part is actually up to you. Either one is going. I I think either one is going to be okay. It's really about the style that you're comfortable with. 245 00:53:43.550 --> 00:54:08.030 Rachel Arsenault: so they're they each have their own pros and cons right? So that 3rd person gives you that little bit of distance. But if you're in like a 3rd person limited, you're still kind of able to filter that story through the protagonist perspective, right? Because you're locked inside the protagonists head. If you're in 3rd Person Limited, you're just looking at them from slightly outside. So the cameras kind of right here, right? And so you're still gonna get their thoughts and their feelings 246 00:54:08.493 --> 00:54:15.000 Rachel Arsenault: about whatever's happening. But 1st person is where you can get the really powerful like 247 00:54:15.080 --> 00:54:27.200 Rachel Arsenault: voice of the character right where you're getting like real time thinking. And it feels closer because they are narrating the story to you. And so that benefit right is that 248 00:54:27.200 --> 00:54:46.530 Rachel Arsenault: it? You get to know the protagonist in a really specific way, because you're seeing it through 1st person. But you know crime novels will. So the girl with the dragon tattoo is a 3rd person, and it's very effective. Sharp objects is 1st person. It is also very effective. So I think just finding. 249 00:54:46.530 --> 00:55:03.109 Rachel Arsenault: and honestly, my recommendation is like, try a couple of chapters both ways. See how they feel. See if you like it better. If it's more natural to you to write in 1st person, or, if you know the scenes, turn out better writing in 1st person versus 3rd person, and that'll give you an idea of what works for you. Specifically. 250 00:55:03.700 --> 00:55:28.320 Sarah @ ProWritingAid: Awesome stuff. There you go. Okay, let's have a look. We've got a few more questions, and like 5 min. So that's good so Sonny asks, what are your thoughts on? How much detail to write about a character's physical description? So so some writers go really far, in my opinion. And I don't think it always adds to the story, or even the understanding of that character's relationship to the protagonists. 251 00:55:28.990 --> 00:55:55.360 Rachel Arsenault: Oh, that's a great! I love that question. What a good question! And actually, you know, girl with a dragon tattoo is kind of an example of this. So the the mystery itself phenomenal characters super interesting but holy, Moly. We have a lot of exposition in that novel, and not all of it feels immediately necessary. I had a long conversation with one of my clients about this, where you know it was like, if it weren't for the drive of the mystery 252 00:55:55.390 --> 00:56:07.170 Rachel Arsenault: you could easily get bogged down at that exposition, and you're just like if I read about another sandwich that Michael Blanc has made. I'm gonna just it's it's gonna do me in right but I still I love the novel, though. 253 00:56:07.580 --> 00:56:17.080 Rachel Arsenault: So so my thoughts let me look at the question again, so I don't ask the or I don't answer the wrong question 254 00:56:17.460 --> 00:56:19.646 Sarah @ ProWritingAid: It was in. It's in answer now. Sorry. 255 00:56:19.920 --> 00:56:20.650 Rachel Arsenault: Whoops. 256 00:56:21.211 --> 00:56:27.530 Rachel Arsenault: Let me see. Okay, how much detailed write about characters. Physical description. Okay, so for crime, specifically. 257 00:56:27.600 --> 00:56:29.710 Rachel Arsenault: my, my advice is. 258 00:56:29.740 --> 00:56:37.519 Rachel Arsenault: start by keeping it light. And again, next wrap you can always build it in. But if you're going to describe the character. 259 00:56:37.870 --> 00:57:06.889 Rachel Arsenault: think about the information about their appearance that tells you the most about them, so are they very well kept? Do they seem to have their whole life in order? Are they a little bit disheveled, are they? Are they kind of funky? Do they have a real classic sense about them? Do they have, like very specific trappings of wealth that they're very eager to display. Are they downplaying their resources? Right? So thinking about what in their physical description. 260 00:57:06.890 --> 00:57:12.119 Rachel Arsenault: actually tells you something about that person. And if you focus on those details. 261 00:57:12.210 --> 00:57:32.470 Rachel Arsenault: you are less likely to run into over explaining where it's like every character you meet. It's like, Wow. She was a lady with medium brown hair, and it went down to her back, and she was wearing a blue jeans skirt. And I thought, Wow! What a nice yellow tube top, right like. And you're just like, Oh, my God, okay, as it's like, I don't need anymore. So picking, I think the most 262 00:57:32.814 --> 00:57:46.250 Rachel Arsenault: evocative and communicative details about appearance is how you're going to avoid it'll help you narrow the description, and also it'll make the description more interesting, so that people are less likely to feel like it's too much. 263 00:57:46.600 --> 00:58:06.710 Sarah @ ProWritingAid: Yeah, that sounds amazing. I have a slightly follow on question to that. Would you say that adding details that the character, especially if you're writing from like 1st person or 3rd person limited, adding the details that the character themselves would notice. Can a actually add to the interactions and the relationship between them. 264 00:58:07.270 --> 00:58:24.479 Rachel Arsenault: Oh, 100%. Absolutely. It tells you so much about a protagonist like. And and their relationship right? Based on what they noticed. So actually a really a really funny example of this. I think it's funny, anyway. So I'm currently reading Vera Casper's classic Laura, which is a noir classic. 265 00:58:25.200 --> 00:58:32.839 Rachel Arsenault: And the protagonist. The 1st thing that he looks at on a woman is her ankles like ankles. He notices ankles. 266 00:58:32.840 --> 00:58:56.600 Rachel Arsenault: and so like what we see when he interacts with women is like he will assess their ankles and be like Hmm, good ankles, not good ankles, good ankles, not good ankles, and it just tells us about the way that he thinks and the way that. And this is also a little bit of you know he has these real misperceptions about women. And so you're also kind of watching him get blindsided by those. And it really kind of messes up the investigation for him. But that's absolutely 267 00:58:56.600 --> 00:59:02.960 Rachel Arsenault: think like using your protagonist as the lens through which you're filtering what they're pulling out about that other character 268 00:59:03.150 --> 00:59:04.240 Rachel Arsenault: chef's kiss. 269 00:59:04.260 --> 00:59:06.080 Rachel Arsenault: Excellent! Definitely do that. 270 00:59:06.080 --> 00:59:20.993 Sarah @ ProWritingAid: Nice one. Awesome. Alright. I will remember that. Cool. Okay, we probably got time for maybe one more. So let's see, let's see which one would be good. 271 00:59:23.373 --> 00:59:24.940 Sarah @ ProWritingAid: We have. 272 00:59:30.340 --> 00:59:55.059 Sarah @ ProWritingAid: This is an interesting one, actually from Rashmi, saying, I think we touched on it slightly earlier. But is it necessary for my antagonist to appear very early, like in the 1st or second chapter? So and then theirs appear after 25% of the story is finished, and they're writing a psychological thriller. So given that they're quite a big character whereabouts. Would you say they should appear. 273 00:59:56.100 --> 01:00:03.840 Rachel Arsenault: Okay, okay, yes. This is another question that I get real pumped about. Okay. So the 1st question you want to ask is. 274 01:00:04.080 --> 01:00:12.700 Rachel Arsenault: is your audience supposed to be able to guess who did it like? Are you trying to create the like? Create a puzzle that your audience 275 01:00:12.760 --> 01:00:22.620 Rachel Arsenault: could theoretically solve by the end of the story. That right? You are wanting them to try to guess who did it, and you've played fair with them, and they have the list of suspects 276 01:00:22.780 --> 01:00:34.109 Rachel Arsenault: is is this, are you doing this sort of like, you know? I don't wanna say murder mystery, because that has a very like. It's like very evocative of like Agatha Christie, and like locked room. But as in 277 01:00:34.110 --> 01:00:59.609 Rachel Arsenault: is your audience supposed to be able to guess who did it? Or is it more like a suspense novel like an action? Suspense where the thrill is not guessing who did it, but tracking down the killer so a counter exam like an example of this would be silence of the lambs. You are not going to be able to guess who did it like. That's not the purpose of the story. The excitement comes from going along with Clery starling and tracking down the killer and finding them. 278 01:00:59.780 --> 01:01:11.690 Rachel Arsenault: If it's the latter, then 25 is totally fine. Now, I would say, for if you're doing a crime story right where they're supposed to be able to guess. 279 01:01:11.690 --> 01:01:35.210 Rachel Arsenault: I would say, 25% is like the the outer edge of when you want to meet them. So that you've played fair with your audience. You have a little bit of wiggle room, but I like to say that generally that character should appear somewhere within the 1st act of the story. And I think, in terms of just for what it's worth a 4 act structure. So each one is 25%. I find that a little bit easier, especially to break down that 280 01:01:35.220 --> 01:01:43.530 Rachel Arsenault: hefty 50% middle but I would say I wouldn't introduce them any later than 25. But I think right around that, mark. You're pretty safe. 281 01:01:44.350 --> 01:02:09.129 Sarah @ ProWritingAid: Awesome stuff. I'm actually gonna take that point away from this. Like, that's a big one. I've not heard of the differentiation between the whole suspense. But is based on finding the the killer and catching the killer versus like the puzzle element. I usually expect a crime to always be the puzzle element, whereas, like, sometimes, you want that suspense. So I'm like. 282 01:02:09.500 --> 01:02:14.749 Sarah @ ProWritingAid: I've never heard anyone say that before. So that's actually amazing. Thank you so much. 283 01:02:14.750 --> 01:02:44.059 Rachel Arsenault: I was so glad. This is a point of like often like difficulty, because it's about just making sure that you know what your reader should expect, and then giving them that thing right. And that's if you get an action story when you thought you were getting a crime story. You're like, yeah, like, I've been in that same place for like when I don't get that, I'm like, how dare you? What is that? Right? And so, knowing what you want your reader to expect so that you can deliver on that, it's gonna save you a lot of heartache. And your reader a lot of heartache. 284 01:02:44.320 --> 01:02:56.740 Sarah @ ProWritingAid: Awesome. Alright. Well, we are just over the hour, so I think we will wrap up there. We do have a few left, but, as Rachel said, you can send your questions through to her via the many different 285 01:02:56.740 --> 01:03:21.520 Sarah @ ProWritingAid: ways that she mentioned earlier. You can also re-watch this replay on the hub when we post it. And you can also get in touch with us via the community or drop us an email, and we'll probably be able to get through to Rachel somehow and get your answer. Get your question answered. So yeah, I hope you guys enjoyed this presentation. Thank you, Rachel, for joining us. This has been 286 01:03:21.590 --> 01:03:39.589 Sarah @ ProWritingAid: amazing. I've learnt so much, and there's been a lot of love for you in the chat. So thank you to everyone for joining us, and we have another session in just under an hour. So hopefully, we'll join you guys then. But for now, thank you, Rachel, and thanks everybody again for joining us. 287 01:03:40.750 --> 01:03:41.925 Rachel Arsenault: Thank you so much, Sarah. 288 01:03:42.607 --> 01:03:43.950 Sarah @ ProWritingAid: Thanks, bye, bye.